Comments:
Excellent reply
Absolute comparisons like 'Founder of Haute Horlogy' make no sense - both companies are more than 150 years old which gives us sufficient time horizon to compare. Royal families bought both Patek, Vacheron, and many other brands. For some people appreciation of a person that was born to privilege acts as a detractor not a positive.
Both Vacheron and Patek competed via e.g. Packard and Graves to develop more and more complicated watches, however in the end it was Patek that was victorious (I think we can assume money on both sides was not an issue) - the very fact that Vacheron waited more than 80 years with the use of CAD and modern manufacturing techniques to design a watch more complicated than the Supercomplication speaks to technical competence of Patek.
Then there are recent developments including Fifty-Six collection carrying 'Richemont group movements' - some people will not mind and welcome this development aimed at bringing a new segment into the fine watchmaking family, however you cannot deny the fact many will consider it a loss of prestige.
In the end there are no things such as 'most prestigious watch company' or 'best watch' since one has to start by figuring out how to compare them, and a common set of criteria is impossible.
Both Vacheron and Patek competed via e.g. Packard and Graves to develop more and more complicated watches, however in the end it was Patek that was victorious (I think we can assume money on both sides was not an issue) - the very fact that Vacheron waited more than 80 years with the use of CAD and modern manufacturing techniques to design a watch more complicated than the Supercomplication speaks to technical competence of Patek.
Then there are recent developments including Fifty-Six collection carrying 'Richemont group movements' - some people will not mind and welcome this development aimed at bringing a new segment into the fine watchmaking family, however you cannot deny the fact many will consider it a loss of prestige.
In the end there are no things such as 'most prestigious watch company' or 'best watch' since one has to start by figuring out how to compare them, and a common set of criteria is impossible.
Thank you CastorKrieg :-)
We are fortunate to be living in a period where we are spoiled for choice when it comes to the watches on offer, be it from a large brand or from a small independent. Yes this can sometimes give us a real dilemma when deciding what to buy but it is a pleasant dilemma to have 
What is the Patek forum a basis for?
Imran,
Many thanks for this post. You set out to clarify and inform using knowledge rather than unfounded opinion.
I think that when one is discussing Patek Philippe watches, there is a growing tendency for people who have never owned a Patek, never will own a Patek, who have never visited the manufacturer or really even done some basic research into Patek watches to use the forum as an opportunity to slam a prestige brand. I am absolutely certain that your coming post about etiquette and forum rules will make all this clear.
I look forward to it
Great report.
Can I just check one thing, from my very limited knowledge of metals I actually thought German silver is harder than brass not softer (due to the higher Nickel content of German/Nickel silver) and hence the requirement to Rhodium coat brass?
Many perceive the finish in an ALS as superior, however they either don’t know the difference of - or fail to get their head around the difference between the softer German silver used in an ALS (and Philippe Dufour) and rhodium plated brass. PD himself told me in an interview I did for 002/24 magazine, that German silver is much easier to work with and in time gives a nice patina. BUT it’s not as hard as brass.
It's not actually just the hardness per se...
A metal actually needs to be of a certain hardness and elasticity in order to be polished. For instance, only Grade 5 Titanium can be polished, and that's due to the hardness. However, gold can be polished (it can be done in 24K but more normally done in 18K/14K) despite it being a soft metal due to its other properties.
So I think it's not just the difference in hardness, but it's generally said among watchmakers that brass is generally much more difficult to polish. Then the rhodium plating covers up a lot of the detail of the hand work on the brass. So it's not entirely a fair comparison to compare a German Silver movement plate vs. a brass one since the German Silver one can always be polished to a higher degree.
So I think it's not just the difference in hardness, but it's generally said among watchmakers that brass is generally much more difficult to polish. Then the rhodium plating covers up a lot of the detail of the hand work on the brass. So it's not entirely a fair comparison to compare a German Silver movement plate vs. a brass one since the German Silver one can always be polished to a higher degree.
Thank you, I'm not a materials science expert, so I don't have a technical explanation. And thank you for reminding us all in the beginning of the difference between brass plates and German Silver plates! [nt]
No message body
Lange vs Patek finishing
At the very least, it is highly debatable if not frankly false that the Patek finish exceeds that of Lange. Maybe you could say they are close ..but the custom engrabed balance cock and the chatons. There really is nothing comparable from Patek at anything close to the same price point. I don't have a problem with Patek having older movement designs that are, admittedly, evolved. There is not doubt that Lange has some pretty impressive innovation in their pieces.
Personally I appreciate both brands but am under no allusion that Patek is categorically better. They have their pluses and minuses and compared to the Patek, the plus goes to Lange for the finishing in my humble opinion.
Personally I appreciate both brands but am under no allusion that Patek is categorically better. They have their pluses and minuses and compared to the Patek, the plus goes to Lange for the finishing in my humble opinion.
Imran you don’t say that much but when you do we should all listen.
Beautifully articulated as usual.
Your love for Patek and all Watches is infectious.
If only we could make our livings out of this great obsession of ours.
M.
Your love for Patek and all Watches is infectious.
If only we could make our livings out of this great obsession of ours.
M.
Thank you for this post
So next time I encountered another PP "hater", I'll just showed them this post. 
When you're ready to step-up from Pateks....
F.P.Journe. There are also many independents that truly do exceptional work. The mess of decoration on current Pateks is not uniform nor seems 'organized'. Also seems Patek is using larger bits to decorate movement, and using fewer / larger bridges to cut costs. Same with dials, as sub-dials look like cost savings efforts to use the same part within more timepieces.
JMHO. Please seek out independent makers, great companies like FPJ, ALS, etc. Have been collecting and admiring mechanical timepieces for decades, so perhaps i recall those past great efforts and so the current Pateks fall short to my eye. Note am not going to discuss long service times, as we all know the major problem there.
So please, next time you post about Patek 'haters', how about also consider the many far more creative manufacturers now within the marketplace
To quote directly from the great man Msr Journe
Philippe Dufour told me [Francois-Paul Journe] just the other day that my finishing quality is now good enough (laughter). I can do even better, but my production cost may increase by 3 times. I have no intention to make my collectors pay through their noses." ("The PuristS Interview Francois-Paul Journe", Sep03)
Yes Patek can probably do better
But will you pay for it????????
Btw
The finish on a FPJ is sublime, but how much is it better than a PP?
You made some comments about the finish
Now can you substantiate them with an in-depth review of a movement like
I look very much forward to it.....
Thanks Imran for the post and laying out your observations. Our common passion in watches, especially Patek given its high status price, is quite a...
personal topic. As we participate in this forum, we should stay as objective and courteous as possible although our thoughts are personal and subject to our biases due to backgrounds and cultures. As long as we communicate in a friendly manner, I am happy to read others' views and their reasons. whether positive, negative or neutral.
Thank you for this amazing post. I enjoyed reading this as it enhanced my knowledge! Thank you. [nt]
No message body
may I can ask
-"So visually the anglage is lost partly to the plating, but also do you want anglage for the sake of anglage? Its purpose is not be just aesthetically pleasing, but to prevent wear over time."
thanks
do we talk about the anglage on the dridges and plates ?If so i don t get it.Thanks
-also an other Q seen on Watchbox yesterday , do yuo think he talks about the part of the crown i ve marked w red ?
thanks
I would like some more challenging inside and outside angles
In a movement to show that PP aren't afraid to spend time on this finish versus the easier rounded bridges
Excellent and important post!
We can all disagree, but Internet can bring the worst in people and exaggerate certain things to an extreme - as Miranda and other people pointed out in this thread Patek provides unmatched 'complete package' from a product standpoint, heritage/history, value retention, etc. Yes, there are companies e.g. AkriviA that excel in one particular thing more than Patek, but when it comes to a 'holistic whole' - no.
Great post
agree patek finishing, attention to detail, etc. Nothing is better.
I thing the vintage pieces stand out because they feel like more labors of love than the modern pieces. They just feel, and look, special. In a time when almost all males wore timepieces. I am alluding to the 2526, 2499, 3448. Even 70s models like 3445.
The new pieces still are amazingly finished. I also own a Lange 1, and agree the finishing is stupendous, and love the watch, but I still feel like patek is patek...
I’ve been saying the same thing here for years.
I’m lucky to experience all “challengers” with personal ownership, VC, Lange, JLC, and as pointed out none provide the whole package.
Maybe some have more contemporary designs, or more colorful appearance, but when it comes to traditional watchmaking, Patek is the top, period!
It may not appeal to some tastes, which is totally acceptable…
Great post!
Maybe some have more contemporary designs, or more colorful appearance, but when it comes to traditional watchmaking, Patek is the top, period!
It may not appeal to some tastes, which is totally acceptable…
Great post!
Amazing how well this post has aged after all these years, through the bubble and all the craziness.
Great question!
I personally buy a brand, not just a particular watch. I tend to be captured by the totally of the brand such as costumer care, service time and quality, product reliability over long wearing time, design, artisanal expression specially at this price points, just to name a few…
While Lange focuses on engineering, which in theory does well, it fails in ergonomics, most watches are just uncomfortable to wear, accuracy, reliability(all needed servicing after three-four years.
Now , let’s see Lange has only one case design vs. Patek dozens, Lange doesn’t have dials elaborate as Patek(marketrie, Guilloche, hand painting)…
For some reason the only parameter collectors judge Lange as being superior is finishing, which heavily declined since Richemont took possession of the brand, however the fail to see all the other criteria of scoring a brand.
I tend to believe that most Lange aficionados, are just rebels against the traditional watchmaking.
Just think of Caliber 89, the unquestionable minute repeaters, , the beautiful enamel dials and cases, the Grabdmaster Chime(serial production), Lange has nothing to match such pieces of art.
So in short, it’s perfectly fine to like a certain brand it’s a mater of taste, but when comparing it to another, one should be realistic and unbiased.
Lastly, Lange only exists since 1990, (the original brand is GO), vs. Patek, 1839.
So there it is my take…
While Lange focuses on engineering, which in theory does well, it fails in ergonomics, most watches are just uncomfortable to wear, accuracy, reliability(all needed servicing after three-four years.
Now , let’s see Lange has only one case design vs. Patek dozens, Lange doesn’t have dials elaborate as Patek(marketrie, Guilloche, hand painting)…
For some reason the only parameter collectors judge Lange as being superior is finishing, which heavily declined since Richemont took possession of the brand, however the fail to see all the other criteria of scoring a brand.
I tend to believe that most Lange aficionados, are just rebels against the traditional watchmaking.
Just think of Caliber 89, the unquestionable minute repeaters, , the beautiful enamel dials and cases, the Grabdmaster Chime(serial production), Lange has nothing to match such pieces of art.
So in short, it’s perfectly fine to like a certain brand it’s a mater of taste, but when comparing it to another, one should be realistic and unbiased.
Lastly, Lange only exists since 1990, (the original brand is GO), vs. Patek, 1839.
So there it is my take…
would u qualify
what u just said as one person's opinion or facts? sounded to me like u have something against Richemont 😅
Absolutely! This is just my opinion based on owning both brands.
However I don’t have anything against Richemont other than all brands they own seem to sink like a submarine.🤷🏻♂️