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Vintage Patek Collecting
Hi all, been a while but thought I popped in and get some much needed advice from this crew. I have spent a long time reading and enjoying learning more and more about Patek’s history, Rolex history, general watch history, and movements history. For me it is all amazing and interesting.
I was thiiiiiiiiiiiiis close to picking up a 1951 ref 2460 before the 32mm size gave me pause. I generally don’t have a problem going small but I freaked a bit. That said, there were a few other issues with the watch which made letting it go easy.
Which brings me to you all - what are your thoughts on smaller pateks? I’d love an early ref 96 for the historical appreciation but yeah 30.5mm ooof.
What about vintage pateks in general? Any tips? Buy the seller, best condition and originality, etc… but most of the watches are not quite perfect and frankly I’m not sure what the best trade offs are.
What are your top checklist items?
What’s a red flag for you? Hiding the serials online? No papers?
What are some things you’d let slide? Light polish? Dial refinish?
I have poured over the Banberry book which is MUST have in any watch library. I’ve studied movement design, case design for many references I’m interested in, and dial layouts that intrigue me. So I feel like I’m as armed and ready as I can be to start my vintage watch journey. Let me know your thoughts!
Side note: Watch pic just for fun. Also my focus is on center/sweep second movements - 12-120 SC, 27 SC - and early Automatics - 12-600AT, 27-460. I'm hopefully going to do a deep dive on these movements and I'll post it up here at some point.
Ref 2460
I was thiiiiiiiiiiiiis close to picking up a 1951 ref 2460 before the 32mm size gave me pause. I generally don’t have a problem going small but I freaked a bit. That said, there were a few other issues with the watch which made letting it go easy.
Which brings me to you all - what are your thoughts on smaller pateks? I’d love an early ref 96 for the historical appreciation but yeah 30.5mm ooof.
What about vintage pateks in general? Any tips? Buy the seller, best condition and originality, etc… but most of the watches are not quite perfect and frankly I’m not sure what the best trade offs are.
What are your top checklist items?
What’s a red flag for you? Hiding the serials online? No papers?
What are some things you’d let slide? Light polish? Dial refinish?
I have poured over the Banberry book which is MUST have in any watch library. I’ve studied movement design, case design for many references I’m interested in, and dial layouts that intrigue me. So I feel like I’m as armed and ready as I can be to start my vintage watch journey. Let me know your thoughts!
Side note: Watch pic just for fun. Also my focus is on center/sweep second movements - 12-120 SC, 27 SC - and early Automatics - 12-600AT, 27-460. I'm hopefully going to do a deep dive on these movements and I'll post it up here at some point.
Ref 2460
Good luck Its along road ahead
Like Cozmopak I also value originality and condition.
Be aware that condition is very subjective and one man original may be someone eels redial or polished case or cleaned up dial
Do not be in a rush to buy. There is always another piece down the line if you are not sure
You will learn which dealers value condition and originality
Follow auction and try get old catalogues
You will make many mistakes so start slow and do not throw all your money into the first piece you see
Most important try and see the watch IRL - often condition report is little - how you say- soft
You have chosen some really intersting calibres but also condition the rectangular 9-90 movement
Good luck
Julian
9-90 is a beast!
Thanks much. Early on, I totally ate up all I could on the 9-90 and the shaped watches they made. So so cool. Love that 9-90 movement and the finger bridges! Honestly was going to go for a 9-90 at one point but the allure of the sweep seconds took over. Then something about the blued seconds and the 60 sec track dials just clicked with me after that I was all in. Hopefully, I'll make my way back around to a 9-90 at some point!
Julian covered it well, I'll add my 2c.
Papers - its difficult to come by with. I'll not waste time over it. an archive is the way. (500SFR and few weeks).
As a general rule of thumb, unless a watch is described as NOS, and it is proven to be like that, I don't trust professional sellers' description (dealers, auction houses etc), I've learned that most of the time they use wording to highlight the best, ignoring the bad, and remove all legal responsibility from them.
I usually "calculate" a needed service by Patek into the price I'm willing to pay. ~1500-2000$ on avg for a Calatrava by Patek HQ.
Originality above all, and the dial (and hands) are the rarest item to fix / restore. so, on all watches my go/no go is the dial condition.
An amazing journey you got, good luck.
Thanks, hadn't thought about the cost of service. Much appreciated. As well as your thoughts on the dial and hands.
Everything has been said I would say. Regarding the size, I will share my own experience, my 1st (serious) watch was an IWC Portuguieser Rattrapante (42.9mm) diameter and for years could not imagine myself with less than 40mm...
Then I fell into vintage watches and bought a GP Gyromatic which was only 33mm ! I started wearing it even though I did not like the size, and after some time and many other vintages ranging from 32.5 to 35mm now I love them and could not consider an "elegant" watch for more than 36/38mm.
It is really a matter of getting used to the diameter. Maybe you should think about buying a cheap 100/150$ small vintage (that you will always be able to resell) and start getting used to small diameters. Then, when the sought after 32mm PP comes up, it will not be a deterrent anymore !
Good luck in your search !
It is really a matter of getting used to the diameter. Maybe you should think about buying a cheap 100/150$ small vintage (that you will always be able to resell) and start getting used to small diameters. Then, when the sought after 32mm PP comes up, it will not be a deterrent anymore !
Good luck in your search !
Good luck with hunting for vintage Pateks ! My PuristS friends tell me that they represent a very
DEEP rabbit 🐰 hole ! 🤣. Lot of fun that is.
Please share wrist shots soon !
Please share wrist shots soon !
Condition…Condition…Condition… These are the 3 most important factors for me in buying a vintage watch but of course there is MUCH more to it than that.
You are at the start of an incredible journey. And you are certainly off to the right start by focusing on researching and learning. Knowledge truly is power.
While I am generally not one to offer advice to anyone as to how they should do something I am happy to share what has worked for me since I bought my first vintage watch 35 years ago. These are the factors that are important to me:
1) Condition, condition, condition - I am a condition fanatic. For me this means an unpolished case, a dial that is original and has had no restoration work, an excellent condition movement. I want to see the watch in person. If not possible I want to see multiple high definition images of outer case, inside caseback, dial and movement. Many collectors like a watch that shows its age. Makes sense to me, but that is just not what I choose to do. While it is extremely difficult to find watches that meet my standard I try to be patient for the right opportunity. Fortunately, sometimes I have been lucky.
2) Research - Before buying or bidding, I will check the data bases of the 4 major auction houses for prices realized, watch descriptions, history of the reference and if still available condition reports. Also I might find the specific watch having been previously sold. Have any changes been made to the watch, eg a different dial which would be a disqualifyer? What did it previously sell for?
3) It’s all in the details. Rarity of the reference, rarity of the metal (eg a steel 1518 is worth many multiples of a YG 1518), rarity of the dial.
4) My general rule - If in doubt, I pass. I am OK overpaying a bit for an incredible example, but buying a mistake eg a watch that is incorrect can be a disaster.
5) I go to as many auction previews as possible. Nothing like examining watches in the metal to expand one’s knowledge. Plus it is great fun. Like going to an art museum.
6) I have and continue to read many treatises and auction catalogues (with prices realized).
7) I have to feel confident in the seller. If I have any doubts I avoid that seller no matter the temptation.
Last comment - I find buying great modern Pateks (which I also love) is relatively easy in ordinary times ( of course we are not living in normal horological times right now) if you have the money. Buying great vintage is much more challenging and in many ways much more rewarding.
So wishing you good luck on your journey.
Best, Patekova
Thank you. This is great advice. Thanks to this site, I feel happy to be able to know such valuable notes for free.
You are very welcome and thank you for your kind words of appreciation. I forget to include one very important factor which is …
8) I will not buy a watch without supporting paperwork, either a Certificate, an Extract or both. And the description must accurately describe the watch. Eg, if the Extract says black dial and the dial is silver I know the dial has been replaced and will not buy the watch.
Your welcome. Also, forgot to mention - the watch must have a Certificate or an Extract or both, with the description conforming to the watch.
Originality + Condition.
Try to see these in person before you spend your hard earned money. If you can, take time off to see these in the flesh. Go to auction previews. There are not a lot of vintage trade shows, but there are some. Schedule an appointment with a dealer and meet fellow collectors in hopes to admire these watches. Ask them to show you dials that have been cleaned vs untouched (unpolished vs polished). In my view, you really need to see as many timepieces as you can (and as frequently as you can) to collect vintage Patek Philippe. The books are really a great resource, but will only get you so far. Buy from people who value their reputation and earn your business.
Also, don't count out PP pocket watches. It can often be less sketchy, expensive, and they are seriously cool.
Charlie