Patek Philippe

I am re-posting this question b/c I think I put it in the wrong forum originally.

 I would like to purchase a pre-owned (discontinued model) Calatrava.  The dealer is an authorized Patek agent, very reputable and well-known watch dealer based in NYC.    The price is OK (doesn't seem like a bargain compared to what I see on the internet from "grey market" sources).  The seller would give me their own papers certifying the authenticity of the watch but they do not have the original Patek paperwork.  I would appreciate any input from the Patek enthusiasts on this forum!

I would never buy a PP without papers any more. It happened to me once when I bought at an auction with AQ...

Go to an AD and you will have all the trimmings coming with your PP - including 2 year warranty, papers, box, magazine etc. - and a good conscience ...

Best

Eric09

Maybe your AD is very reputable dealer but I do not recommend to buy a PP without papers. As our collegue said, PP is not only a very good watch, it is also a watch with guarantee, beautiful box, papers.... if You want to be with good conscience, quiet. 

I've purchased a number of watches without paperwork.  You can always get a certificate from the archives (in fact, I would demand one from an AD) and not having the original papers should help you get a better price.

As a collector I prefer the total package but this is not always possible.  It's the watch that is the most important unless you plan to wear the papers.

on a number of factors:

1. The paper guarantees its authenticity and that the watch has a good title (i.e. it's not a stolen watch).

2. The paper and box would makes the whole set complete (this is important but not essential, to me). The substantial discount could perhaps make it up.

3. If it is an antique or a discountinued model like 96, 1491, 2526, it's (almost) not possible to get the whole set with the original box and papers. 

For point #1, you could perhaps ask if the dealer could apply for an achives papers for you, just to make sure the watch has a good title.

  

If someone sells you a PP completed with papers & box, how could you tell that it's not stolen?  Will PP honour the warranty if it's already registered under other people's name? 

You are right. I really can't tell if it's a stolen watch even if it comes with the paper. But the possiblity would be lower because normally thieves only search for watches and valuables. They don't bother about papers and box (I doubt whether they would take the papers even if the papers are put beside the watches in the vault). One thing we could do is to apply for an Archives paper to make sure it's not recorded stolen.

As for the second question, I think they would honour the warranty provided it's within the period. I have no such experience but I do think PP watches should be like other commodities (e.g. TV and cellphones). It's their job to provide services for the watches they sell and these watches can be traded in the grey market and they can also be gifts. Do you agree?

 

The warranty follows the watch, not the person.  The registered name means nothing.  If you own the watch and it's stil within warranty, then Patek will service it.

Why not, if this is a watch you're really in love with ,that you won't sell, and for which you will get an impportant discount...

Best.

Nicolas

Like you said, the price is not that great. If the same watch can be had from grey dealer with all paper at similar or even better price, then I would not even consider getting it from this AD without paper.

When you need to re-sell it, buyer doesn't care if you bought from AD or grey dealer, they care if you have paper or not.

Unless it is a super deal, otherwise there is no point of buying any watch without paper.

 

and a great deal much better than from a AD then sure but you must be certain of authenticity the box and papers you can always try and source from PP

I have bought all of my vintage PPs without papers - no problem.
As already adviced in this thread: Ask Patek Geneva for an extract of the archive -
so you will be on the safe side!
1) You know that the watch is authentic
2) you know that the watch is not stolen - PP does not hand out archive papers
when they have information that the particular watch had been stolen.

Concerning resale prices:
It is not so important for a resale if there are original papers or not! An extract from archives will do.
Most important is
1) the condition of the watch
2) if the model (Reference) is sought after or not.
If it is a simple "2 hands only" ref. from the sixties or an "elipse" you will have problems to get a good resale price.
If it is the large Calatrava ref. 570, a 2508 or a ref 2526 there wil be no problem at all to reach a perfect resale price.

If you like the watch and you feel the price is OK then go for it!

kind regards
erich

Thank you again for all your help and information.   And more questions: Can I request archive papers directly from PP or does the AD do this for me?   And by archive papers, do you mean certificate of origin?

directly from PP in Geneva by telling them serial## of case and movement.
It will cost you around $100 (when I recall it correctly - but I am not sure, it must be about this).
I would ask the seller to do this for you as it is HE who should proof the authenticity.

Good luck
erich

The Archives paper is nothing equivalent to the Certificate of Origin. It's just like a copy of the record of the watch, stating the movement no., case no., calibre used and some details like the dial type and color,etc. It also has the date of sale and manufacture. It doesn't tell you anything about the condition of the watch, for they don't need to see your watch before they issue the Archives paper. It's just an extract copy from their record. You can apply to PP via the Internet (just furnish them with the movement no., case no. etc..).

The reason I suggest you ask your seller to apply for it is that if they can't get the Archives paper for the watch, it means there's something wrong with the watch (e.g. it's a stolen watch) and you can cancel the deal. It's just for your own protection. And just for your information, the fee for an Archives paper is about US100.

As for the Cert of Origin, it's the original guarantee paper. It's the one and only issued for the watch. If you lose it, you can only apply for an Archives record. So, the Cert of Origin is very important to some PP collectors.

 Hope this helps. Good luck hunting!

Once again, thank you all for your input; you have been very kind.  And of course I have more to ask.  I have two options:

(1) Authorized Dealer will sell me the watch with a 2 year extended warranty.  This is a well-known, established company with a store near my home that I can go to for service. Can I say the name on the forum?  It starts with a T.   No Patek papers.  Their own papers that state it is a "certified pre-owned" PP.   They have a 30 day return policy.

(2) Non-authorized dealer (internet) has the same watch with box and certificate of origin.  Price is a little better.  3 day return policy.  One year warranty but they are located half-way across the country so I'm not sure how likely I'd be to use them for service.

This watch would be a gift for my husband.  He's had his eye on it for about 10 years.

Thank you all for your expertise and advice.

If the dealer is the national chain I'm thinking of, they often do not have papers for their preowned items.  They claim that they don't want Patek to penalize the people that have sold them the watch by not allowing them to pruchase hard to find items.  So I would not worry about authenticity.  The papers would be nice for resale value, but I don't think your husband would dare think of parting with this gift!  I would go with the local authorized dealer as the peace of mind would be worth the extra money.  Also it doesn't hurt to ask them to try to obtain the papers for you from the original owner.  Sometimes they are able to do it.  Otherwise the archives are available through Patek.

Best wishes

 

.... Ditto with the above commit about the dealership. I have dealt with them before in the past and am very please with my experience. This is a gift for your husband, with or without paper, he will cherish it forever. Buy from the dealership and have no regrett, for he will love it and be thrill about it. Also you can establish a relationship with the dealership that can prove to be very important for your future purchase.

No message body

I'd advise you to buy from your local dealer because:

1. Most importantly, you can examine the watch by yourself, esp. a preowned watch. I've bought a "brand new" Patek from a US dealer in Florida ( I don't reside in the States), but the watch turned out to be a "used and heavily polished" one. It ended up a nightmare experience because the dealer said the seller was a long-time customer of their store and they would believe him. They refused to take back the watch.

2. You can go back to the local store easily for service. Money is not that important when compared with all the trouble that might be involved if the watch has any problem (negotiation, shipping back, insurance...).

3.Your husband is not going to sell the watch. Since the paper only affects the resell value of the watch (it seems you don't have to worry about the authenticity of the watch), the paper is close to meaningless in your case (it might even have the name of the original owner, not yours or your husband's). So why bother about it?

4. Your husband will surely like the watch because he's been eyeing on it for 10 years, and it's a gift from you. The whole buying process has its special meaning. If it were me, I would enjoy walking into the store, chatting with the staff, learning from them, establishing a good (friendly) relationship with the store, the wrapping of the gift. This would be much better than going to the post office and getting a parcel with something of an unknown condition. You would have to pray that you won't be cheated.  

Again, good luck!

 

I just want to thank everyone who responded to my questions; your advice and suggestions have been very helpful.  I think I am going to go with the watch from the AD (T in NYC).  It is true that the papers do not matter b/c my husband will keep the watch and eventually hand it down to one of our sons.  And the watch that does have the papers has someone else's name on them--so it's not quite the same as buying a brand new watch with papers and your own name (as a newbie, I may be wrong about that but it just feels that way to me).  The peace of mind is important--he can go to the local branch of this AD, which is 10 minutes from my home, when he needs service (and not worry about shipping and insurance).  And it is good to know that I can get archive papers from PP.

Everyone on this forum has been so kind and generous with their time and experience--thank you all so very much!