Patek Philippe

Dje:

I have great respect for you because of your thoughtful, intelligent posts on the Lange forum.  I certainly respect your opinion, but I do have the right to respectfully disagree with it.

I never said that Patek owners are generally so stupid that they can be manipulated for 20 years as you stated.

Patek is great at what they do.  If you are offended by my use of the word manipulation, I can tone it down to "shape" and have the same effect.  That Patek's marketing department has very successfully "shaped" the perception of the Patek watches and bolstered their image as very scarce commodities is pretty amazing.

To "promote" their 5070 (try a movement that actually fits in the case) and 5970 watches (BTW, I happen to really like the 5970 in PT very much) as something very valuable and "hurry up and get 'em while their still hot" because we are replacing the inferior movement with our new and improved superior "in house" movement is pure genius.  Considering that the people at Lange will eat the Pateks for breakfast is something that also shapes my opinion of Patek.

To have to fill out a questionnaire and sit and wait for Stern or his staff to deem one worthy of having the honor of spending more money on a watch than most people spend on a car is sheer genius.  That is total manipulation of the marketplace.  It is in fact complete and total control of the market place.

And then there is the issue of the Patek seal vs the Geneva seal.  That has been covered ad nasuem in very great detail elsewhere.  What total arrogance on the part of Patek.

Maybe it is because when there is nothing new on the Lange forum, I stop here to read the posts.  It seems that people here are more concerned with their rate of return or return on their investment when buying a Patek as opposed to the Lange Purists love of the watches and the genuine warmth and happiness for their fellow Lange Purists when they get a wonderful new watch.

It seems that more people here are more concerned with, "which watch do you think will appreciate more and faster, this reference or that reference?"  But maybe that is good for Patek - you be the judge.

Sincerely - Mark

 

This message has been edited by DRMW on 2009-10-07 14:51:15

As you have put it , I also have an opinion and it si that PP is not shaping anything or manipulating any market as you have mention it. What has happen over the years is that this company has manage to harbor the wishes of thousands of people that have the money to spend 50 , 100 , 150 or 200 , ect... thousand dollars in watches and not go bankrupt. So dont think that Patek is doing some marketing miracle that makes some rich guys spend their money.

No message body

Maybe it is because when there is nothing new on the Lange forum, you stop here to read the PP posts, and you happen to like the 5970P. But "unlike" other PP lovers, you love this reference's inferior movement and the design, and the ...., but not at all because of its marketing, or its investment potentials...  Am I right?

Personally I like my watches (PP, Breguet, RM, DR and Lange..) just because I like them. And I think most watch lovers here (and on the Lange forum) won't buy a watch just because of its ads. BTW, do Lange ever post ads?

 

 

 

This message has been edited by Hamster07 on 2009-10-02 22:22:22

Mark

 

You say that you never called Patek lovers stupid. Please reread your post you just did again!  Why so angry?  Lange is a great brand outstanding in every regard enjoy.

 

Moderator please lets lock this thread!

i think patek philippe admirers, collectors, lovers, etc should accept criticism of the brand without resorting to asking moderators to over step their bounds and lock threads, the gentleman from the lange forum expressed an opnions and as i recall opinions are still subjective and therefore debatable. rest assured that whatever is said on this site does not for one iota move the parimeters of the patel philippe philosophy and its objectives.

so either we conjure up valid reponses to the thoughtful provocation thrown by the lange colletor thread or we move on. but to suggest censorship, is to stem the liberty of discussion - do not forget we are 'only' discussing watches and nothing of earth moving relevance or importance toward world improvement. therefore i look forward to constructive responses to this provocation.

as it is, perhaps it has brought up a few points for consideration (such as the size of the 5070 vs its movement size) and i am a patek phillipe collector. 

Thank you for taking the high ground and defending my right to have a different opinion than other people on this forum.  I appreciate your insightful and intelligent response to my post.

I fully agree with you! I am a PP lover but it does not offend me at all if somebody has a different opinion.

Sometimes I also wonder about some facts, e.g. that  a watch with a (highly finished) "contract movement"  reaches so much appreciation and high demand compared to a watch with "in house" movement.

best

erich

If you read my first post it was addressed to Dje.  We had traded a few opinions on the "What is the first thing that comes to your mind when you think of Patek?"  Dje gave a very intelligent and thought provoking comment to something I wrote about Patek's marketing.

He wrote with respect towards me and I responded in what I believe was a respectful manner as well.  I decided to start a new post as opposed to having the discussion buried many levels down.  I though it would be an interesting,  thought provoking thread.  I also thought it would be fun to play devil's advocate.

I never expected anyone to suggest that the thread be locked (which would be censorship of my ideas).  Maybe I should be run out of town with people chasing me with torches, or I should be locked up in jail for my differences of opinion (some countries do that).

I certainly did anticipate people's reactions on this forum, but to take it to a personal level is pretty insane.

Let's be adults and have an interesting discussion.

Mark

 

nt

Hi,

In fact Mark was indeed answering my answer, in a new thread.

Maybe he should have "brought back" the context, as it would have explained it all.

I was just answering the fact that he chose the word manipulation about the Patek Philippe marketing. Manipulation implies a bad moral content.

New we agree to replace manipulation by "shaping" the market! But the market (us, or more precisely you) doesn't let himself get manipulated by PP's excellent marketing (and Patek Philippe doesn't try either), he just receives the words from PP and assimiltes them as he wants! IMVHO!

Cheers

Dje

You said :

" It seems that people here are more concerned with their rate of return or return on their investment when buying a Patek as opposed to the Lange Purists love of the watches and the genuine warmth and happiness for their fellow Lange Purists when they get a wonderful new watch. It seems that more people here are more concerned with, "which watch do you think will appreciate more and faster, this reference or that reference?"  But maybe that is good for Patek - you be the judge. "

 

I'm sorry but imo this is really BS. There are indeed some people who try to earn something on a watch and maybe you get the feeling that most people try to. But that isn't correct. Take me for example. I'm one of those who own a 5070, you know, the watch with the tiny movement. Anyway when I bought that watch almost 3 years ago the secondhand price was more or less the same as the listprice. So, yes, it kept good value but there was no premium (yet). I bought it because I loved it . In the meanwhile I had a lot of other watches, some of them cheap, others expensive. All of them were sold after months or 1 year. I enjoyed them but they had to go because I wanted another watch(es). The 5070R is probably a watch I will never sell.

Also, keep in mind that Patek had probably thousands of collectors around the world and barely 50 different people post on this Patek forum. If 20% of those 50 are indeed grey market dealers or people who just want to flip it you will get the WRONG impression that Patek enthusiasts are all concerned about value. Besides, where are the real big Patek collectors ? Some of them have 10-20-30 and more chronographs, perpetuals, ... and I thin I've never seen of those guys on forums like these.

And the last thing. Why does't it happen with Lange. This is very, VERY simple to explain.  Lange just can't make a sought after watch !!!   And believe me, they would love to but right now they just can't. There has imo never been one Lange which had a waiting list. ALL Lange watches can be found at your AD and even when the're  new models they can be yours with good discount. If that would ever change - So when Lange creates a new watch in the next years which would be very hard to get and would be sold with a premium, those greymarket dealers and flippers would also appear on the Lange forum. You can bet on it !. So don't blame Patek, Panerai, AP, Rolex that they are more succesfull than Lange, Breguet, VC, ... And please ... definitely don't blame their REAL customers. We're not all flippers

You stated:

"I'm sorry but imo this is really BS. There are indeed some people who try to earn something on a watch and maybe you get the feeling that most people try to. But that isn't correct."

But then you agree with me 2 paragraphs down, when you admit that there are people on this forum, who are more interested in money than watches - but they are small in number.  I don't understand your position.  It seems that you agree with me - up to a point - up to a percentage of people on this forum.

I could care less if Lange watches appreciate quickly or not at all.  They will be passed down to my son and I wish he will get as much pleasure from them as I have.

The fact that Langes have not hit big numbers at auctions.  Maybe Lange should bid on their own watches at auction to inflate and keep the prices up (as I have read some other company has done).

Actually, you mentioned that there is no waiting list for Lange.  But there is no qualifying questionnaire to see if one is worthy of even being considered for the honor of being allowed to even purchase a Patek in the fist place.

You don't think that is marketing?

Lange makes a sought after watch because of the total quality and finish.  Whether there is a line around the block for them does not influence my buying decision.  In spite of how much I love Lange watches, if they ever compelled me to fill out a qualifying questionnaire to see if I was worthy enough to purchase one, I would never buy another watch from them.

If I insulted you about the size of the 5070's movement compared to its case, I do apologize.  It was not meant to hurt anyone's feelings or insult them.  It was said to make a point.  And that point is for all of Patek's talk of quality of their watches, it seems that they cut research and development costs by just placing a movement in a larger case as opposed to developing or outsourcing a movement that was meant for the case.  People want larger watches these days and it seems that Patek took shortcuts with the 5070, which I am glad you love and I hope it triples in value if you ever decide to sell it.

But then you agree with me 2 paragraphs down, when you admit that there are people on this forum, who are more interested in money than watches - but they are small in number.  I don't understand your position.  It seems that you agree with me - up to a point - up to a percentage of people on this forum.

Well, I said that there are indeed some people who buy them to earn something but this is a minority, the same minority which you would find on a Lange forum if Lange would be able to make a watch which sells with a premium. Those people are not interested in a specific watch nor brand , they want to make money and they don't care if it would be with a Lange, Patek or Swatch.

I could care less if Lange watches appreciate quickly or not at all.  They will be passed down to my son and I wish he will get as much pleasure from them as I have.

Probably 90% of those who buy Patek think the same way

The fact that Langes have not hit big numbers at auctions.  Maybe Lange should bid on their own watches at auction to inflate and keep the prices up (as I have read some other company has done).

IF Patek buys a watch for their museum and it fetches a high price this means that somebody wanted te pay a fraction less than the end result. Besides, I'm going to visit the Patek museum within 2 weeks. I wonder if I'll see the hundreds of 5070 - 5970 and 5004  They only bid on a few rare watches Mark and those I just mentioned are not rare enough, those prices aren't made by Patek.

Actually, you mentioned that there is no waiting list for Lange.  But there is no qualifying questionnaire to see if one is worthy of even being considered for the honor of being allowed to even purchase a Patek in the fist place. Lange makes a sought after watch because of the total quality and finish.  Whether there is a line around the block for them does not influence my buying decision.  In spite of how much I love Lange watches, if they ever compelled me to fill out a qualifying questionnaire to see if I was worthy enough to purchase one, I would never buy another watch from them.

If Lange would make a watch (lets say 500 pce) and 3000 clients would love to own this watch, they would to try something too. I don't say the questionnaire is the best thing ... but it helps. Let me say one important  thing. I 'm not a 'big' customer' simply because I don't have the money to buy all those expensive watches. But I once tried to put my name on such an application form and it worked. I was allowed to buy this piece.  At the end I didn't because I did not have the money - or i should have sold my 5070R which I didn't want to. I hope this explains that you don't need to be a rich collector with already a zillion expensive PP watches. Even a silly customer like me who saved quite some time to obtain his beloved 5070R got the chance. The relationship with your AD is much more important. Your AD can and   will convince Patek that you are a genuine client and not a grey market dealer or flipper

If I insulted you about the size of the 5070's movement compared to its case, I do apologize.  It was not meant to hurt anyone's feelings or insult them.  It was said to make a point.  And that point is for all of Patek's talk of quality of their watches, it seems that they cut research and development costs by just placing a movement in a larger case as opposed to developing or outsourcing a movement that was meant for the case.  People want larger watches these days and it seems that Patek took shortcuts with the 5070, which I am glad you love and I hope it triples in value if you ever decide to sell it.

No need to apologise ! This is not an insult, i do respect you opinion But didn't Lange do exactly the same thing ? The Lange1  is a great watch and since the trend towards bigger watches is a fact , Lange did make the 'Grand Lange 1' ... which is imo the same as an original Lange1 with the same movement, but in a bigger case. Besides, wait untill 5 november, Patek will present it's new inhouse chronograph movement, no longer the Lemania based movement .... they did not cut in research and development

Best regards

Hi,

You wrote:  "The fact that Langes have not hit big numbers at auctions.  Maybe Lange should bid on their own watches at auction to inflate and keep the prices up (as I have read some other company has done)."

In fact Patek Philippe watches represent a large share of all watches sold at auctions. If you think that they are bought back by PP, .....

Furthermore there is IMO no real sustainable link between the value at an auction of a record breaker PP pocket watch, or a rare 2499, and the value of a recent or current simple or little complication (the vast majority of the production) PP watch.

Dje
This message has been edited by Dje on 2009-10-03 10:36:12

Hi Bruno,

Your love for your 5070 is well-known here.

It's a dangerous love for us.

I don't know how many grey market dealers can be here but I can tell you we have ad hundreds of posters , and you can multiply to evaluate the readers.

in fact I've been in touch by email with several collectors with incredible collections like those you mention. At this level it seems that indeed they don't want to be known.

I can see why!

Cheers

Dje

A sad fact for Lange is that it is owned by underperforming Richemont. That is why it will never be in the same league of Patek.

Yes Lange watches are technically brilliant but they lack spirit, courtesy of the conglomerate.

Naturally you will have to have a final word and bore us with your intellectual diatribe.

Maybe the smart thing is just to move on.

 

Naturally you will have to have a final word and bore us with your intellectual diatribe.

That says it all...Thank You

 

... even if they both belong to Richemont. Anyway, what does this has to do with that? On the other hand, did u know that JLC used to proved Patek with... MOVEMENTS!!! It was at the beginning of the century but still... And until now, JLC is a good notch above Patek if we are talking inovations, research & dev.... Little respect for JLC, Check the Hybris mechanica 55 coffret, it will give u a clue, mate

K

Sorry I assumed people also read the financial press (actually I'm glad most don't as it might affect your passion).

Latest News is that Jerome Lambert is now on the board of Lange after the latest Richemont fiasco.

Sept. 22 (Bloomberg) -- Cie. Financiere Richemont SA said the chief executive officer of its German watch unit, A. Lange & Soehne, resigned over “strategic differences,” a day after announcing the departure of the head of Baume & Mercier.

Fabian Krone was replaced by A. Lange’s chief operating officer, Jerzy Schaper, on an interim basis, said Arnd Einhorn, a spokesman for the Glashuette, Germany-based watchmaker.

Baume & Mercier CEO Michel Nieto yesterday said he resigned from the Swiss watch brand, also citing a strategy disagreement.

“Whilst we regret the decisions of both Mr Krone and Mr Nieto, their resignations stem from differences of opinion as to the strategic direction of the two brands,” Alan Grieve, a spokesman for Richemont said by e-mail. “Both Maisons will continue to be managed independently within the group.”

Richemont said this month sales from its watch brands fell 18 percent in the five months through August. The Geneva-based company doesn’t provide sales figures for its individual brands.

“Both Baume & Mercier and A. Lange & Soehne were underperforming brands,” said Patrik Schwendimann, an analyst at Zuercher Kantonalbank.

Swiss watch exports declined 26 percent in the eight months through August, according to official statistics released today.

Last Updated: September 22, 2009 09:59 EDT

Source Bloomberg

 

Don't get me wrong I love JLC and Lange. But the developments illustrate a point of differentiation of Patek and key strength of success. They make great watches that is it. Lange make even better watches but are considered underperforming due to short term financial woes. Also when Patek gets accused of marketing hubris it gets me furious as there are far more opportunistic players out there.

Regards

Rene

.. that adds credibility to the statement: a swiss banking analyst calls Lange an underperformer, most likely not having a clue what that company is all about - LOL

Your statement just underpins Mark's point that Patek discussions seem to trend towards money instead of dicussing fine timepieces, maybe there is a reason for that ;-)

And yes, I do not own a Patek - and that for sure has a reason, since I have my own experience with their quality.

... Jst because JLC CEO is on the board of Lange. They are owned by Richmond, and the main point of having several brands is to use the strength of one to  help the anothers. Its all about synergy. Having Lambert on their board is clearly a plus as the guy proved to be a top notch manager of a watch brand, but it doesn't mean JLC is running Lange.

The value of these brands is in their heritage, the history, the culture of each brand. Any new owner of any of old brand, will try to protect that heritage. Develop the brand WHILE protect its past, its identity. Look at the amazing job Jerome Lambert has done with JLC, check all their marketing campaigns... Its a lesson on how to turn a good old dusty watchmaker house into a major brand playing in the big league.

I will give an example: The duometre, that is now playing in the league of the 5070 and datograph. The watch is build upon the idea that the chrono is as important as giving time. The movement is built around that idea, the dial is jst the inside reflected on the outside. Add to it a 1 botton pusher,  and u have a winner. Golden rule of design is that the shape is dictated by the function. And here we go back to the history of JLC that was solely a movement manufacture, know for their innovations, technique, etc...
Bottom line, JLC is a less prestigious name then Patek or Lange, but based on the history of the brand, he developped the brand that was ( almost ) totally asleep.

Look at Nicolas Hayeck and what he did with Breguet and Blancpain for an example. Protect and build on the heritage and image of his brands to build the futur.

All  the great watch brands have something in common and this is what preserves them : Their value is in their history, their heritage,... their past.

Karim
 

Damn...I learn every day!

If underperforming is owning brands like VC, JLC, Lange, I'd like to be underperformant!



Lange has his own autonomy in the creation of watches, too.

And even if it was the case, I wouldn't see it as a big shame, as JLC is one of the very few to be recognized as a Manufacture.

Best,

Nicolas

even patek annual production decreased form 40 K to about 30 K .Their total sales revenue did not drop much due to the price increases for their complications and demand due to the last of the lemania run stampede.Rolex is also underperforming.Jerome lambert from JLC may be on the Lange board, but he is not the only board member. IMHO, it is a big mistake to have finance / bean counters run companies.Often, the bottom line is the only thing that matters.Unfortunately this often happens when there is a financial crisis.

I just don't understand why is there always this rivalry which is going on about Patek v Lange, Patek v Journe etc etc.

Patek no matter how you might think, is an absolutely stunning brand, with watches and movements that can blow your mind away. The same goes for Lange.

But to tell the truth, it seems that the public has a much more critical mind towards Patek, as in, they hold Patek to a MUCH HIGHER standard as opposed to other watches. It seems fine for Lange and Journe and etc etc to have flaws, but when it comes to Patek, such flaws are not allowed to exist, and is even more condemned and let known in the public forum.

As i truly believe, my Patek has never given me any problems, and it has continually provided me join whilst wearing it. The only thing which irks me is maybe Patek has such a rich history and strong reputation that it has more critics on it. I do not understand why it seems to be an offence for Patek collectors to be proud/happy with their collections, without the need to be said they our opinion is 'shaped'. How can one compare two unique and individually outstanding brands.

It is exactly like comparing a Rolls Royce to a Maybach. Both are equally good, equally stunning, but both has its flaws!

I like certain Pateks and also certain Langes, as well some other brands, but I collect Breguet watches and Literature, I am loyal to them, but thats not to say id dis other brands, to me Patek and Breguet are unrivaled especially in their Heritage.....................

Hope this doesnt offend anyone

Hi there,

To me the world is such....There will be no equal or justification for the state of equalberum,

Just take,

Mercedes benz and BMW's endless race.

Coke and pepsi

and many more.....

You can blame it on marketing strategies,brand,R&D or etc but it will always be there as long as we exist.....this is mainly us the human being are born with brain that demand for finer things,endless desire to be different and hungry for profitability and etc.

Therefore,just stick with what you want and enjoy,life is just as simple as that.

BHK9

Hi,

.....but comparing a Rolls-Royce Phantom to a Maybach 62!  

Cheers

Dje