Patek Philippe

Unbelievable that a thread like "Is Patek inextricably linked to value considerations?" has been locked.
It showed fair and open meanings...

One step further and this forum will only be a platform for the "Oh nice watch, drool, drool" and " My first Patek" - threads...
This message has been edited by Dje on 2011-06-21 23:50:08

"In change we believe!" --- and there came the peace nobel price along.

Why not a change here, for a change?

If the Sterns or a Lange makes a great result at auctions it is well presented here, in very detailed posts.

Why not let the Purists talk about value, too?

"We are the Purists!"



Enough slogans from social unrests -- they just make my HEAD ache, for a reason ... ;-)


Regards

Moritz

" What is the most collectible ", and so on?

I just ask, respectfully, and wonder where is the interest of such posts?

Isn't it more interesting to speak about watches, rather than their rarity, collectablity, value?

Of course we can also wonder why this kind of posts can more often been found on the Patek forum, than on other foras....

Does PP have to be affiliated to the Wall Street Journal "?

Don't we prefer more horological posts?

So many questions...

Best,

Nicolas. This message has been edited by amanico on 2011-06-21 14:01:26

... appart from that: I learned from here, also, what model is considered rare, collectible and valueable.

And I must say: this falls into the category Information ---> and that is also standing under the PuristSPro logo.

I do not see anything wrong in that as it is obviously also a need of some people here, a guidance they ask for.

Certainly, bold claims about discounts are not really gentlemen like as well as not really credible.

But as it is a rule here not to discuss, it has to be followed ...

BTW, one of my last sentences in my respond to murcilagoboy's post was: financial consideration does not matter when it comes to a Patek, ANY Patek.


Regards

Moritz

This is certainly an interesting subject with different perspectives worldwide. The post and the responses were well within a gentlemanly conversation regarding the subject dealing with perceptions and not dwelling on specifics, which for some reason required a spanking to end the discussion.

I appreciate the interaction and while I may not agree with all points expressed by everyone, I respect every respondent and their views.

There are folks looking to this forum for discussions of various subjects regarding Patek Philippe who truly don't know and ask opinions which just may involve things like rarity, perceived value, production levels, limited editions, etc. I have no problem discussing such matters within understandable guidelines. I would be shocked if that post exceeded those guidelines.

Maybe an explanation where this happened would be in order.

I sincerely believe that the original post was a very intelligent and thought provoking one. I certainly believe that in a democracy, the exchange of ideas is important. But I guess this is not a democracy here.

How dare anyone say anything negative about the high and mighty Patek Philippe?

Patek itself promotes those values of rarity and value. So when people here question them, the thread is locked.

I cannot believe it.

Mark

My personal thoughts on this:

1. This is a private website and ultimately the moderators and management can chose to allow or not allow posts on watch value - it's really down to how users behave and whether they chose to take their posts elsewhere.  It's a very difficult subject because it is notoriously difficult to patrol, and even if well managed, it generally invites members outside the community to post non-value added queries, trolling, and related unpleasantness.  In a sense, not allowing such topics is a relatively blunt instrument way to manage content; I'm sympathetic.

2. I'm truly amazed how strongly Patek Philippe as a company pushes this subject onto its client base.  Quoting the most recent Patek Philippe magazine: "The remarkable investment value of Patek Philippe watches was proved once again during Geneva's end-of-year auctions, when Christies's dispersed the third part of a single-owner collection fetching some US$3 million.  This amount, achieved for ten watches, brings the total for thirty watches now sold from the appropriately named "Connoisseur's Vision" collection to over US$19 million...".  (emphasis mine).  I'm not too sympathetic; this is the manufacture!

3. It is very reasonable that someone spending quite a bit of cash on new or vintage watches wishes to feel they have acquired an asset rather than a plaything.  It is a slippery slope then to speculation; which is forgivable but...well, see point 1 above.  I'm sympathetic.

4. While expressing sympathy to both sides is not particularly helpful, I think a possible compromise might be to trial a forum for specific auctions.  It would allow the main fora to be clear of these types of discussions and create instead a single area for auction discussions.  Yes these would touch on value and results but this would be a hopefully manageable discussion specific to the auctions then at hand.  I would have thought it would be in the auction houses interest to encourage such discussions and there may even be some commercial links that could be established with them similar to what is achieved with some manufacturers.  Having purchased at auction in the past, it certainly would have been helpful to be able to draw on a community expertise when thinking about some lots. 

So to me it's not the end of the world if we can't discuss such matters but they are interesting; perhaps auctions are a possible way to focus the discussions.

All the best and I hope I'm not locked out of posting this!

When 2 watch collectors meet and talk with each other, aren't the questions:

1. What watch is this?

2. Where did you get it from? 

3. How much did you pay compared to the MSRP (ie discount)?

4. Is it collectible (ie. rare)?

So, what is the difference between these questions on a personal level vs here, where we have a virtual meeting?

We do ask the question you mention but that's oversimplifying things and altogether misleading.

What actually happen is that not more than 20% of the conversations revolve around the topic on price the rest is about why this watch and feelings about this watch and friends sharing their passions.

Writing it on a post leaves the subject of price as a main topic and invite unnecessary focus on who got it cheap and who's the sucker that overpay follow by criticism of who and who manufacturer.

The tone usually shift to a cynical one. Attitude is also on the negative side.

Is that what we come here for?

Do we want someone to come in our and start conversations about how beautiful our furniture is and then blast way on the price and politics on the manufacturer?

Please. I understand we need talk about what we think but please do so in respect of of others

I'm sure there something much more important and passionate to talk about.

Best
Tyler

Any consideration of future value is just speculation on everyone's part. I can tell you the man at the top smiles when speculators come into the market because that is the single best way to increase prices. Just wait and see the new price increase next month. Do you really think the price increase is due the metals market ( Patek has already taken care of that issue ). Do you think it because the currency issues. ( the dollars will come back within the next 2 years stronger than ever ) So what is it. The price is determined by the perceived value. That my friends is why value should not be discussed on this board. No watch with maybe the exception of truly rare vintage should ever be purchased for any reason except that it makes you smile and therefore value is a mute issue. Those who buy based on future value either have way too much money with no real passion for the brand or just plan foolish IMO. If the watch does not make you smile, pass on it.

The management also does not work for  watch companies which is why so many enjoy this site.  Perhaps the post in question is in a grey area as to subject matter, but it is obviously a primary objective of this site to be free of all discussions related to price/value/sales/collectability etc.  That is material for the collectors market where I believe we are allowed to post messages and discuss all things related to price and value.  I imagine the management believes in the idea of a slippery slope, meaning that posts even hinting at this subject matter may lead to more and more related posts, thus a very firm line has been drawn.  It is true that when collectors get together they probably do discuss price, value, where an item was purchased, etc.  Personally I don't want to read posts that are basically requests for an appraisal, or how rare a watch is, or what it will be worth in 20 years.  These posts tend to exclude those who don't own a PP, or whatever watch being discussed.  Staying away from this subject matter allows all enthusiasts to discuss watches comfortably without money and status being an issue.  The bottom line is that the people running this site can do whatever the hell they want to, and if you don't like it, don't complain, just go somewhere else.  You may not have the freedom to discuss every subject you feel is pertinent to horology and collecting here, but you do have the freedom to not participate.

Stewart

and you will realised how so kind the mod is in this forum.

I think that one the things that people have not taken into perspectiv in this discussion is the fact watches can be expensive and not everyone can afford expensive watches. By excluding any discussion on prices of watches, you open up the forum to a greater number of individual and not just a happy few (who have the big bucks), mostly because there is no fear of having to respond that you cannot afford the watch you are discussing.

Regarding collectability I think that this topic is often discussed here without ever having to mention prices, suffice to say that the watch is an LE, has a defect, belonged to someone well known, etc.

I personnally come here for the great and friendly atmosphere and consider that starting to change rules that work rather well would be a mistake.

Best regards,

George

And that everyone knows what they're getting into when they buy a watch at $10,000 or $100,000.  Its like a bag, a pair of shoes, a bling ring or whatever someone could buy with money and its worth is based on perception.

 

Surprised the thread got locked though.

Hi,

Yes the thread got locked because I'm overly tired of such interested discussions.

Let me state it:  Patek Philippe is a commerical company producing and selling watches to make money. It has never been differently. They manage their business and they do it quite well. There is no reason to be uncomfortable with that.

It happens that watches are a subject of passion (at least supposedly for those attending here) and Patek Philippe watches are among the most exhilarating watches.

We do not tolerate discussions about value here (as I've always understood it) because money is not the reason for the passion of the creators of the site, because money definitely detracts from passion.

We also do not tolerate discussions about value because quite often those wishing these disucssions have been coming here with an agenda.

It is very easy to manipulate opinions with false informations, or "un-informations". For instance the recent discussion with Bruno about the production runs of the 5070. I don't see Bruno having an agenda on this subject but I see many people with an agenda on this reference as it has been the hottest PP reference in the last decade. All figures given are necessarily unfounded as they are estimates without sound base. What if you learn in 5 years that 20 000 5070pieces were produced. Why would do you think that's not possible? Why would you think more easily that they made only 3 or 4000 pieces?

Do you see were I'm going?  All discussions about value are generally based on impressions, speculations, manipulation......

If you're a watch fan, love a piece, can afford it and buy it, do you really bother if it will loose 20%, keep its value or make 20%? Does that make such a difference for you? If yes, maybe you should not put your money into watches because if you think they're an investment you've been misleaded!

Do you seriously think that Patek Philippe watches make money? Second hand prices are nearly always below list price, except for a very little few modern references and for some vintage rare and looked after pieces.

As written I'm tired. To some extent I find this aspect of Patek Philippe as repulsive.

Now let's be clear. As of now all discussions about value will be immediately and totally deleted without further notice nor warning.

If you want to discuss value, open your watch investment forum.

Thank you for reading.

Dje

hopefully Amanico or Dje won't ban me from the forum....

First, I agree with Nomer that this is a privately owned forum that has it's rules and you ave to abide by
them.... if you do not agree then it is quite simple, do not participate, at least actively....

Second, the moderators I believe (and please correct me f I am wrong) are paid to do their job and thus
they probably have some rules/ instructions that they have to follow....

It is up to a Moderator, I guess, what discussions are permitted or not. For example there were two other recent
discussions in the Rolex forum that entertained the value of watches ( what would you consider the safest/best investment,
May 24th and Rolex...a new type of money, June 14th)...

So, at the end of the day, it is up to the management and the moderators to set the rules and apply them...
May be Dje could follow Amanico's example in setting specific rules- JLC forum had several threads regarding quality
issues and amanico set specific (and actually quite logical and fair) rules on what is allowed or what is not. Dje could do
the same regarding the value threads here (my suggestion is in good spirit Dje and please do not get upset)

Cheers