Patek Philippe

to prevent further discussion. Actually, I thought some of the discussions to be very informative with points made which I had not considered, leading me to step outside of my box to understand the dynamics and circumstances within theirs. I don't view this as a bad thing, controversial... maybe, but it can lead to better understanding for everybody.

Whether I agree with the subject matter or comments made by others is not relevant, but the apparent censorship of  some topics and discussions leaves me cold.

I have no idea of the relationship Patek maintains with any members of the forum or what influence they may have on the range of topics, but it seems some selected topics are not open for discussion. Maybe a better description might be "protecting or protection" of the brand from criticism.

Passion, Opinion, Information are the words below PuristSPro and maybe I am missing something here, but there are folks who have opinions (and all sorts of opinions I must say), information to pass on (other than the latest and greatest), and passion for the brand.... all which have value and a place within discussions.

I do believe there should be some degree of censorship to those who post inflammatory topics if their purpose is nothing other than just that.

I will end hoping this is taken with the spirit as it is intended... that Passion, Opinion, and Information can be shared and discussed openly, in a gentlemanly manner of course, of a product which means so much to us all.

I must confess that I'm one of those who don't always understand these locked threads. 'Investment' posts are always closed and I can understand this. On the other hand, if some people TRY to buy watches as an investment, who are we to forbid it.

On the other hand the previous 2 posts were not about investment value but are more about the ever rising listprice. I can't imagine talking about the listprice can be against any rule. Besides the listprice might be one of the most important factors which will help me decide if i buy or don't buy a watch. If somebody would start giving me a few Pateks for free, I wouldn't mind about the price but since I need to work hard and save damn hard for such a watch, the price I have to pay is VERY important.

Not so long ago there was a similar thread on another forum about the Lange price increase. Another thread was concerning Journe and why they quote the price in CHF and not in euro or USD. I think these are logical posts we find on several forums and about every brand. I think Rolex might be the number 1 when speaking about listprices and increases.

Now that Patek, Rolex, AND A LOT OF OTHERS  became 20 or 30% more expensive in 1 or 2 years is not a fact I like but due to the weak USD and EURO I can accept these increases. Take a Swiss listprice and you won't see these exuberant increases. When others do not accept these increases I think they have they right to discuss about this. Without discussions we have no forum !

No message body

sure, let's talk about watches. but please let us not forget that a watch is not simply a watch, not merely a physical object. a watch has many aspects attached to it (tradition, history, values, etc.), and the price -or let's say prices in general- is also one aspect of it, whether we like it or not.
as i understand -and agree with- this forum is not about talking about the price or price range of one specific watch. there is a "collectors marketplace" section where anyone willing to buy a certain watch can get the informations he want, if buying a specific watch is his concrete aim.
however, if it pleases patek philippe to increase their prices three times within one single year, we -collectors, aficionados, or purists- have no reasons not to "talk about it". why? because the politics of the company patek philippe (be it marketing, pricing, supporting public events, etc.) DO have an impact on the brand, and the watch itself (at least the perception thereof). of course, we can try to limit ourselves discussing the timeless beauty and perfection of a patek philippe watch, but patek philippe -the watch company- and patek philippe -the physical watch- are two distinct, yet interrelated things.
unless patek is our sacrosanct religion, we should be able to love its watches yet maintain a critical gaze towards the people making it (not necessarily those who design or build it, but those leading and marketing it). for example, if Mr. Stern says something like "we are not motivated by money" or "we don't focus on the chinese market", i have serious troubles accepting his statements without qualifications or elaborations. if PP raises its prices 3 times a year, i doubt it happens only because of economical reasons, and discussing these issues in depth on this forum could appease my doubts.  in fact, any censure, taboo theme, or premeditated locking of topics on this forum -unless the aim is to discuss a specific price or find out where/how to get a specific watch at a specific price- just contributes to create further doubts.
i love patek philippe and have great respect for its watches and the Stern family, but i also respect diverging views and criticism thereof.
besides fantastic wristshots and precious technical information, i'd also like to see discussions about historical and social aspects of patek philippe. how the brand developed, how indeed patek and other brands are (or are not) status objects (for the few?), etc. also, i believe that most purists here are old enough and capable to discuss "uncomfortable"(?) topics with dignity and abstain from sarcastic or inflammatory comments.

"you never really own a patek philippe..." yes, but that statement also is applicable to the watch company of the same name! the marketing strategy of the company patek philippe -including price policy- should be open to serious inquiry and discussion. why? because we care!

As a long time but intermittent lurker, I have a suggestion. Earlier, I followed a thread about whether there should be a Rolex forum, and after some debate & dissent, it opened and is frequently visited by its enthusiasts. I also followed a thread where the week-end wrist scan was stated to be blocking he home page, & after some discussion a separate tag/forum was initiated which too seems to be frequently visited by its enthusiasts. And I’ve followed this “value vs purism” thread which intermittently pops up. So I wonder if this cannot be included either in the Collectors Marketplace, or even during the week days on the Wrist Scan site.  

I for one prefer that the PP forum remains relatively free of financial discussions & focuses on the watches, but would welcome a place I can browse for “value related” discussions.

 

fnk

As you noted this is a very democratic place and everyone has a voice and those who choose to use make a difference.  The team at ppro is open minded as care equally as much as the members and value the communities thoughts above all.

Thanks for your thoughts

Bill

No message body

I don't know Dje, but thoroughly enjoy his excellent postings on Pateks. His tatest post on the new micromachined silicon parts was truly outstanding.

However, he is TOO MUCH IN LOVE WITH PATEK.

Therefore, he is not serving us as an unbiased moderator, which he should be.

The moderator(s) cannot be a mouthpiece for any watch company.

He/she should permit critical discussions -that is how we develop deeper insights on the mechanics, reliability, problems, availability and YES prices of the watches in our interconnected international market. We cannot separate global economics outside this discussion forum, because it makes Patek prices extraordinarily and unusually higher in a short time due to USD/CHF parity. This alone makes discussions of price/availability a very relevant topic to this forum.

Frankly, I am tired of reading postings like "I love my Patek", "See I have a Patek too..".

This forum should be less superficial and more substantial (i.e. Pro!!), and this inevitably requires understanding and sophistication which will involve some economic discussion as well.

Cheers

Jim

 

 

 

     

 

 

 

 

 

   

Actually, from his postings, I think that he prefers JLC to PP...

However, a moderator is not good or bad because of his love for a certain watch....
Besides Purist is a privately owned website with s rules and paid moderators...
It is up to the owners to retain them or not...

(I am not really sticking up for Dje, he can do it himself...)

Now there are several threads that are on the horde in or violate the rules of this forum....
For example...
There have been several threads in the Rolex forum on Rolex being a type of currency...
There was a sort of political comment on a revolution that took place in North Africa recently....
There was a post recently in JLC on a vintage Polaris which ended up with the statement that it is on sale
in CM... The post was permitted although it clearly violates forum rules.........

At the end of the day, it is up to a moderator's discretion to lock a thread or even kick us out of the forum...
Whether we agree on not.... that is another question...



Cheers

I have no problems with mods locking or deleting threads / posts as they see necessary.  Their responsibilities are to steer and direct the discussions as they (and the owners of the site) see fit.  This forum is not a democracy - we participants agree to abide by the rules of the forum.  In return, we presumably get some enjoyment and pleasure from it.  That's the exchange. Someone is paying for this site (and I know it isn't me) and that gives them the right to set the rules.

If you don't like the direction of the forum, perhaps an email to the mods to express your concerns and ask for some explanation would be helpful.  If not, well, I don't think the mods can force you to participate   And you can always ask for your membership fee refunded!

And as a participant in the discussions on the locked threads, I'm not 100% sure why they were locked, but from that I gather that the discussion was veering off topic - or veering into an area that might lead to more heated exchanges.  And if you don't like dje's style, all I can say is that there are less friendly mods on some other watch forums.  This forum is an oasis.

No message body

No message body This message has been edited by Dje on 2011-08-10 14:56:30

I think if you've ever tried to moderate a forum your opinion on the topic would be very different. Without getting into the details, its an enormous amount of work and for the most part a hobby to everyone who does it.  To say we should have someone unbiased doing it is not a realistic expectation as you want someone knowledgeable about the brand running a forum and of course being a fan of that brand goes hand in hand with it for the most part. Otherwise why would anyone agree to moderate a certain forum in the first place? In any event, I'm just as frustrated as the next person with all of Patek's price increases in such a short amount of time. As a consumer the only thing we can do is not buy as many of them going forward or just enjoy the ones we currently own. This is very similar to not visiting a "free of charge" forum anymore if you don't like how it's being moderated.

Tony

It is not because I'm a moderator too.

It is because me too I start to be very tired will all these posts dedicated to value. I'm not stupid, I know that one of the reasons of the purchase of a Patek watch is this kind of argument... and by the way totally  highlighted by the brand.

The only advice I can give to the people wondering about the future value of the watches, the interest of not to buy such model in an investment perspective is to gaze into the crystal ball. You will find a lot of answers.

And did you notice it? The forum has a white background and not a salmon one. It is another difference with the Financial Times.



I would like to thank a lot Jérôme for the great job he is doing as moderator of this forum.

Fx


This message has been edited by foversta on 2011-08-10 12:22:13

Yes , I know it is a lazy way of posting but hey its 0600 here

Sterile discussion.

Most of the watches, PP and Rolex included, are not investments, but only for consumer purpose.

Discussing about Value is like guessing the winning numbers at the Lottery.

And for the few watches which can be seen as investments, it would be naive to think that people will mention them.

If the investment watches are well known, there are no investment anymore.



Therefore, attacking Jerome on the way he moderates the forum is not very fair nor elegant.

Moderating is a job, a tough one, and ONCE again, moderators are not paid by the brands.

Best,

Nicolas.

Come on - Its not fair to jump on the guy just because he dares express an opinion.
Personally, I find our moderator rather good, but as to whether he is only in love or too much in love with Patek is just word games. I do have the sense that a critical view is rather faux pas, and - although I know I am in a minority here - the idea of removing the' value' discussion from our discussions bizarre. The elephant in the room concept...
After all, what ever happened to free speech? Is this China?
Apologies in advance...

I think we are getting to the beating a dead horse stage here, but...

The forum is not the public street corner.  It is a privately owned entity that has certain rules of conduct, and a moderator force that is empowered to keep things on track as they see fit.  By having an account (which is free) we have agreed with that principle.  There should be no reasonable expectation of completely free speech here. We may not like all the decisions the mods make, but at the same time, we don't have to participate and / or create content for the site either. 

One thing that I've noticed on this forum is that threads get locked rather than deleted.  This was somewhat surprising to me, but it does show a high degree of transparency into what is considered appropriate vs inappropriate.  The mods are not shilling for their brands (and I am not shilling for the mods), but maintaining some sense of decorum.  Jim's post seemed sincere (and not offensive) but AFAIK he wasn't insulted by the mod or brow-beaten.

Some people may also know of a forum where this sort of discussion would have been shut down / deleted in heartbeat.  The trick is to find a forum where you feel comfortable with the atmosphere, and recognize that you don't have to spend any time with the posts of the sort you don't like. Here's the sort of stuff that I like to see:

how thoughtful and caring the community is with regard to the forum and conduct on the forum.   The time that people take to compose meaningful comments shows that the members accept and embrace their role within the community the good the bad and the ugly.  However, at the end of the day, we are all caretakers of the forum and that diversity of feelings and thoughts is what make us strong.

It is a pleasure to be among you.

Bill

No message body

. . . what may not have been immediately obvious by way of comparison with other forums, Meiwenti.

Freedom of expression is a value we cherish, and content is deleted or locked only after conscientious review, often as a team effort.  Removing churlish or self-aggrandizing posts is both unobjectionable and easily understood; the necessity of curtailing earnest conversation over valuation may be less obvious to some, but it's still necessary in order to retain the civil ambiance that's been our hallmark.  One wouldn't discuss the value of his (or her) portfolio at a dinner party, and the same holds true here.

Cordially, Art

I always write " oh what a superb watch from x or y manufacture...".

You will notice that I'm often direct in my positions, even with the brand I moderate ( JLC, if youn didn't know, already ).

When I disagree, I say it. Look at my positions on the Panerai, Patek, rolex forum, you will some some of my direct positions against some watches.

What I have issues to accept is to read some suspicious thoughts against Jerome, and for  you to know, yes, he's a friend of mine, and yes, I will always defend a friend of mine.

Is it a crime? Is it not politically correct?

I still think that it was not fair from the author to state such a thing without knowing personally Jerome.

And for those who think that patek pay their   moderator, let me laught.

I will ban myslef immediately if you can prove such a statement.

Freedom of speech?

Are that  " thoughts " being locked?

No.

Best,

Nicolas.

my post and I read everyone's thoughts with interest.... it shows the diversity of the forum and its members.

Dealing or living with a brand for many years allows you to have deeper feelings, of course.

As for Jerome, his moderation with PP is one of the most difficult task, I think.

This should never be forgotten.

Best,

Nicolas.

i think this kind of stereotyping needs to stop.

nt

...seem to be slanted towards their personal country of preference and not having a true world view of various situations.