Comments:
How is this finish achieved?
Hi folks,
Could somebody explain to me how this finish is achieved? My first impression is that it is sandblasted, but since
the examples I see it most often (from my vintage watch perspective) are watches from the 1860 -70s, I am a bit skeptical.
The finish is completely matte, I know some watch companies use it extensively nowadays in their watches as well. And I especially like how it looks.
Here is an example from a Louis Audemars that I particularly enjoy (excuse the poor photos). As you can see he winding wheels are finished in this matte non-reflective finish that plays off the very highly polished 'black finish' of the teeth and other portions.
Any pictures of how it's done (if there's been 'watch manufacture visit posts' where they've shown this specific technique being done) would be great. I am very inclined to try to reproduce it if at all possible, so technical details would be interesting.
Thanks for your time and input,
S
Could somebody explain to me how this finish is achieved? My first impression is that it is sandblasted, but since
the examples I see it most often (from my vintage watch perspective) are watches from the 1860 -70s, I am a bit skeptical.
The finish is completely matte, I know some watch companies use it extensively nowadays in their watches as well. And I especially like how it looks.
Here is an example from a Louis Audemars that I particularly enjoy (excuse the poor photos). As you can see he winding wheels are finished in this matte non-reflective finish that plays off the very highly polished 'black finish' of the teeth and other portions.
Any pictures of how it's done (if there's been 'watch manufacture visit posts' where they've shown this specific technique being done) would be great. I am very inclined to try to reproduce it if at all possible, so technical details would be interesting.
Thanks for your time and input,
S
The wavy lines?
Are you referring to the wavy lines? It's quite typical of the Waltham railroad pocket watches. Hopefully this picture will post:
I recall, in my travels and conversations, that it was done on a machine similar to a pantograph with a small rotating sanding disk, somewhat similar to the ones used for cotes de Geneve except much, much smaller, or a grinding stone with a slight conical tip.
I recall, in my travels and conversations, that it was done on a machine similar to a pantograph with a small rotating sanding disk, somewhat similar to the ones used for cotes de Geneve except much, much smaller, or a grinding stone with a slight conical tip.
Sorry
I must have read it wrong. The matte finish is, indeed, produced by sandblasting or bead blasting. Romain Gauthier uses it as a finish on his watches.
Yes the finishing on the wheels :)
Hi Andren,
Yes, it was that other finish. But thanks for chiming in. The swirling finish is also very beautiful and a big draw for me on most of the US pocketwatches!!
Happy New Year (a few days early!)
S
Yes, it was that other finish. But thanks for chiming in. The swirling finish is also very beautiful and a big draw for me on most of the US pocketwatches!!
Happy New Year (a few days early!)
S
probably a number of different ways
Hello ALB,
A frosted finish like the one you're referring to can be achieved in different ways, presumably distinguishable by an expert, at least in person with a loupe.
Blasting with a specific grain and hardness of media can presumably get some similar results in an industrial fashion (and I think it's something of the sort that Grönefeld use for the relieved portion of their stainless steel bridges), but a more traditional method involves "rolling" the pieces on an abrasive compound on a textured surface.
It's similar to the techniques used for black polishing, but with a coarser abrasive and, instead of using zinc or something like that, you use frosted glass (for example). Both techniques involve a great deal of skill and patience to get good results, but they're distinctly different at the same time. Best guess is that's what Kari uses (on steel wheels at least).
A different sort of matte finish that I've never tried can be applied by a wire wheel with all but one or two bristles removed. George Daniels describes this technique in Watchmaking and this seems to be the technique Roger Smith uses for his frosted bridge decorations.
_john
A frosted finish like the one you're referring to can be achieved in different ways, presumably distinguishable by an expert, at least in person with a loupe.
Blasting with a specific grain and hardness of media can presumably get some similar results in an industrial fashion (and I think it's something of the sort that Grönefeld use for the relieved portion of their stainless steel bridges), but a more traditional method involves "rolling" the pieces on an abrasive compound on a textured surface.
It's similar to the techniques used for black polishing, but with a coarser abrasive and, instead of using zinc or something like that, you use frosted glass (for example). Both techniques involve a great deal of skill and patience to get good results, but they're distinctly different at the same time. Best guess is that's what Kari uses (on steel wheels at least).
A different sort of matte finish that I've never tried can be applied by a wire wheel with all but one or two bristles removed. George Daniels describes this technique in Watchmaking and this seems to be the technique Roger Smith uses for his frosted bridge decorations.
_john
Very interesting thanks!
Great, this is what i suspected. That there's sandblasting, but also that it can be done manually with the glass beads (although I didn't know with what compound and this answers it!)
Would the the fine glass beads be used as in diamantine powder? I.e with a drop of oil and on then slowly working the piece over it until one get's the frosted finish?
About the Daniel's book, what page is it in where this is described? I have the recent reissue of is book and did a quick flip and couldn't find it (I'm sure I somehow passed over it!).
Many thanks and Happy New Year!
Sebastian
Would the the fine glass beads be used as in diamantine powder? I.e with a drop of oil and on then slowly working the piece over it until one get's the frosted finish?
About the Daniel's book, what page is it in where this is described? I have the recent reissue of is book and did a quick flip and couldn't find it (I'm sure I somehow passed over it!).
Many thanks and Happy New Year!
Sebastian
I'd be very surprised to hear about blasting being used traditionally
Hello ALB,
Just to be clear, blasting (with sand, glass beads or what-have-you) is not a traditional watchmaking finishing technique in my experience and I'd be surprised to hear about any of the frosted finishes you've pointed out being created in that manner. A blasted surface usually has a coarser appearance (although it can vary with the media employed) and must be applied to a surface that is either masked or where additional polishing or finishing can be applied to the adjacent surfaces afterwards (as in the Gronefeld bridges). Otherwise the edges look dull and indistinct.
The usual frosted finish technique for ratchet wheels and the like that I referred to is discussed by Daniels on page 65 (third edition) and I noticed that he doesn't mention using frosted glass, so apparently that's not necessary (I've used frosted glass with good results however). Yes, it's done with coarse diamantine or something similar (crushed grinding stone powder in oil is what I used). Not sure about glass beads, that would be news to me.
The other wire brush matting technique (for brass or soft metal bridges) Daniels describes is on Page 402. Daniels doesn't mention removing most of the bristles, but that is what Roger Smith recommended based on his experience.
_john
Thank you for the follow up
Thanks so much for taking the time to give me the page numbers and the clarification. I greatly appreciate it.
I will order the material and give this finishing a try. If I achieve anything good, I will share the results
Many thanks again for sharing your knowledge and time with me and all of us here!
S
I will order the material and give this finishing a try. If I achieve anything good, I will share the results
Many thanks again for sharing your knowledge and time with me and all of us here!
S
Operated with the foot?
Thanks for posting this picture. Is it operated by pump action with the pedal on the floor creating the airstream??
Great picture and thanks for posting this machine!
I looked up and saw that lots of gun parts are finished in this same way and now that I think of it it makes sense! So thanks to all of you for chiming in with this question.
My best regards for the new year,
S
Great picture and thanks for posting this machine!
I looked up and saw that lots of gun parts are finished in this same way and now that I think of it it makes sense! So thanks to all of you for chiming in with this question.
My best regards for the new year,
S
Operated with the foot
Its indeed operated with the foot.
A big variety of ground material can be used for creating different structures.
We shall also think about the difference of English and Swiss watchmaking at one point. Already at the end of 18th century Swiss companies have started to drive the industrialized production of movements ahead, which didn't happen in England. And English watchmakers traditionally didn't pay that much attention to finishing of the movement than Swiss watchmakers did.
FHF (Fabrique d'Horlogerie de Fontainemelon) for example started with industrialization in 1793 and 100 hundred years later they already produced 1 Million movements per year. I assume already in the 19th century Swiss watchmakers have used various techniques of finishing.
A big variety of ground material can be used for creating different structures.
We shall also think about the difference of English and Swiss watchmaking at one point. Already at the end of 18th century Swiss companies have started to drive the industrialized production of movements ahead, which didn't happen in England. And English watchmakers traditionally didn't pay that much attention to finishing of the movement than Swiss watchmakers did.
FHF (Fabrique d'Horlogerie de Fontainemelon) for example started with industrialization in 1793 and 100 hundred years later they already produced 1 Million movements per year. I assume already in the 19th century Swiss watchmakers have used various techniques of finishing.
Thanks for this
Yes, this reminds me of ebauche makers such as Japy churning out millions of movements.
Thanks for the photos and sharing this info! Much appreciated!!
S
Thanks for the photos and sharing this info! Much appreciated!!
S
Frosted finish.
Hello,
I have done this frosted finish on many things. As has already been mentioned, you need granualized particles of something harder than the material you're finishing. I use silicon carbide honing powder, which is readily available and comes in different grades, you can achieve a finer or rougher finish depending on the granule size you use, and since the silicon carbide is so hard, it can be used on hardened steel.
Here's an example of my work using this method, this is around 15-16 mm in diameter, i used a fairly fine grade powder for this:
Another method mentioned was the steel wire wheel method, this is best done on brass because steel is generally too hard to be affected from the wires, this is done with a wheel with a full diameter larger than 4 inches, you pull a few of the wires out to the side of the wheel and use those against the brass, so essentially you would be using the "corner" of the wheel as it's turning, this is apparently a difficult technique to learn, but i haven't used it very much, though the times that i did use it, it didn't seem all that difficult.
Here's a piece of scrap brass that i tested this method on a few years ago, this was the first time i tried this method and i didn't have much trouble with it, i think the trouble comes when you try to get into small corners which you would have to do with some watch bridges: