Horological Meandering

Folks, inspired by Bernard'sala Dan Brown's Da Vinci like approach to his take on Seiko and their offerings. I wanna start a discussion on this, if you would indulge me.

Should seiko break out of their comfort zone and create something so revoltionary that it rivals Urwerk or should they stick to the Dufour inspired Credor leanings?

What do we want from seiko? We keep hearing that their marketers could do better, their design could be more adventurous etc etc....but at the end of the day, do we not yak comfort in the familiarity of their design and built quality? I have only one humble GS that whilst I was enamored for a week after a friend got it for me from Japan, has since been in cold storage, unseen and unloved. It seems common consensus, perhaps I am wrong, that Seiko represents certain values like built quality, monetary value and design stability, what say you guys? What do we want from Seiko?

Firstly, I don't think GS should break out of their current lineup whilst in the midst of rolling out their global campaign. Any drastic change could and would cause a big enough detour from which they might never recover from.

What do we want from seiko? My guess is that we want from GS to fill us with the same wonder and awe that CURRENT Japanese pop culture like manga and Harajuku street fashion fill us with. A sense of wonder, a sense of awe, a sense of WHAT THE HECK WAS THAT, by Japan Inc.

From my amateur assessment of most things Japan, culled from readings and personal encounters/experiences however, Japan moves at a glacial pace. In things which are steeped with tradition as watch-making is, they move VERY slow. So for us to hope that they fill us with feelings imbibed to us by current Japanese exports like super-fast small cars, fast forward looking fashion etc, GS has to extinguish all ties with their current mature watch makers and designers and fill it with qualified young guns who are more daring. This is something which I don't foresee GS doing, anytime soon.

Perhaps a better view on what GS can offer us would be for us current owners to see it as holding a first generation Crown, first generation Walkman etc. Well made, well engineered but perhaps just not hitting the spot entirely today.

Now this holds true for ONLY a select group of GS buyers. There will be some who see it as holding an instant classic and sacrilege to those who want it to be modernized/updated/made current. For others, there will be the enduring hope against hope that in due time, whether changes are made or not to the current GS line, that GS fills in them the void they find lacking today.

Apologize for the rambling.

I think I have had about 20 Grand Seikos. Most of them are fantastic and overall I love the watches.
They are classy and classic. Here's an introductory photo to hint at what I mean.






However, not all of the watches I have owned made an impression.
Some of the GS models are so totally boring that even GS fans can't fall in love with them.

Yawn. Fast forward please  ->>





Pardon me if you have seen all these images before but I want to set a baseline for GS expectations.
I'm only using watches I have owned - there are many more I haven't ever seen.


Let's start with the motor.

MOVEMENTS
The movements are beautifully finished in a machine/human way - not a totally hand-done appearance, but virtually flawless in all the ones that I have examined.

Even the various quartz movements are gorgeous. The batteries have without exception been from Seiko and deal straight, text aligned, etc.

Many of the special edition watches have subtle special features, such as this laser-engraved Seiko lion on the back crystal. It's visible only under extreme conditions of contrast.

Of course the lion appears on the solid casebacks too.

Special models have him in/on a Gold medallion medal-lion (get it?)





Spring Drives are nicely done too

Manual wind or automatic. These were among the very first ones made, quite rare in the US

DIALS
Now to dials. Seiko designers have a fascination with dial textures and special features - not visible to anyone but the wearer with good vision.

The white above and black watch below have the same case shapes and hands, markers and numerals, but completely different patterns.
The black one was really only clearly seen with the crystal off, as shown here

I've never replicated this shot showing the lion and the GS logo on my "Milgauss" Grand Seiko. I've taken hundreds of photos trying to capture it again.

This watch has an incredible sparkly finish - like you poured glitter onto the dial. But it looks completely flat when viewed closely

I didn't catch it too well here, but this one has 7 tuxedo stripes down the dial - it's sparkly too. Plus the star indicating 5 seconds/year accuracy.
The 6 is a tad high here though, I see

VARIANTS

I'll walk you through an example of the endless permutations that make little sense to me, but no doubt thrill the marketing crew back in Japan.

The "regular" Spring Drive - bracelet, steel, champagne dial. Endless variations in the color of this dial as the light shifts.





Black dial variant





I count this Credor as a Grand Seiko - it's a simpler, cleaner design on the dial but the Spring Drive movement inside
drives a moonphase instead of a date wheel. The moon is a blackened silver disc on a mother-of-pearl background

Here's the same movement again in the "Snowflake" special edition GS - a spectacular dial finish, white titanium case, viewport on the back,
different bracelet, fantastic blued second hand, etc. etc but otherwise the same dimensions, same shape, same Spring Drive

Ah, the Spring Drive motor again but here in Galante trim. Too funky for me, even though I bought it and wore it for awhile, it was too much.
Giant steel posts, complex case, fancy straps, elegant deployants, curvy second hands (looks like a Silberstein interpretation of a Seiko GS).

FOR THE SPORT
Now here's another contrast - the Sporty GS GMT in water-tight case, red GMT hand, bracelet, steel, automatic movement, etc.

 


FOR THE OFFICE
The same thing with a complex domed sapphire crystal, egg-shell dial, blue GMT hand, leather strap, same motor.
It makes me yawn but the people who own them seem to love them.

THE PACKAGING
Elaborate combination of cardboard box, folder, papers, books, wiping cloths, etc.
You get a test certificate for your very own watch showing results (exc on Spring Drive & quartz)





Overall it makes you feel like you made a good buy but didn't blow $1000 on a walnut box

SERVICE

I have only had one watch need service. This one lay in a cabinet in a humid Singapore house for years and suffered some damage to the dial.
It went to the spa in Japan and came back to me looking perfect in all respects.

I have taken apart more than a dozen GS watches, to change batteries, polish the cases, investigate, etc. Not one has been for a mechanical problem.

CAVEATS
In my 7-8 years of chasing Grand Seikos I have yet to own a Chrono, a Diver, or a Gold version. They have all been too large (on wrist or budget).
Do you really have to have pushers a 1/2 inch high or a case 20 mm thick? I think not.

CONCLUSIONS

I think they occupy a notable place in the watch world. I turned a Paul Gerber and a couple other watches into a fascinating series of fine Japanese cultural artifacts.

What would I like from GS in the future?
 
1. An easier time buying some of the special editions. I'm not close enough to get in on the specials new, so I have to scour the world for dissatisfied first-time buyers unloading. It's no doubt saved me money but I've missed a few (so far).
2. Better access to the company, to understand what the watches are all about. This isn't like dealing with Lotus (the car company) but more like General Motors. All communications seem to go through corporate legal (and stop there) thus you hear nothing from them. Ever.
3. Availability of spare parts and straps, buckles, etc. I'd like to get some stuff and have no idea how to do it.
4. Continued focus on high-quality movements; the available variations appeal to me=  a. mechanical regular and b. high-beat, c. Spring Drive, d. quartz
5. Continued focus on appealing dial of all sorts of textures, colors and patterns
6. Perhaps slightly more avante garde case designs but not to the extent that they can't be worn (ala Galante)

Cazalea

 

This message has been edited by cazalea on 2010-11-10 09:51:29

Great watches indeed.

Thank you for sharing your experiences.

As a typical Japanese watch lover, I have been kinda ignoring Seiko, but your collection did inspire me and I began pursuing and studing GS.

Thank you so much!  Wonderful collection.

Ken

Please let me know.

If you are in Singapore/Geneva/London...let me know.

Thanks,

Bernard

 I am in southern California, most of the time.

...but I have my thoughts about Seiko...

There may be a misconception that GS is higher level than Credor.  Both GS and Credor are the top line of Seiko line-up.  GS pursues the best practical watch - thus a bit boring appearance, but practically everyday wearer design,  and I don't have a beef about it.  Credor, on the other hand, is more dressy and more design-oriented and prefers thinner caliber, thus more manual winding calibers.  IMO, today's Credor line seems to be way too design oriented and no longer my liking (sure, "Eichi" has been on my wish list, but they no longer accept order...sigh...)

Cool Japan or J-Pop stuff....  Sorry, I don't know or understand much about those stuff (I am too old...), but the pop watches are already there by Seiko in more affordable line and most of them are already available worldwide?

I just want GS and/or Credor to keep the quality level as it is today.  They have to hire and/or train good watchmakers globally to service it.  And they also train many more skilled watchmakers who work on the high-end caliber in Shizukuishi factory in Iwate prefecture to serve the much wider range of collectors.  One unhappy prelude I understand now is the spec of the LE Commemorative Astron Quartz watch.  Normally, the highend price tag quartz watch (e.g. LE GS Quartz line) has one star that means the caliber is special with +/- 5 sec a year accuracy  - and they can service and calibrate anytime when it is not up to the spec.  But this Commemorative Astron, the first highend piece made available globally (only 20 for Japan, and 180 for the rest of the world) has the spec of only +/- 10 sec a year.  The AD who is clost to Seiko Suwa factory (where Quartz caliber is made) told me that Seiko is not yet ready to serve the highend caliber globally at the level they have been providing domestically.  So, what do we want  from them?  I would certainly want them to be able to provide the same level of quality in servicing the clients, anywhere in the world.  Hopefully should have regional servicing senter to take care of ligher servicing, while the most complicated or highest end caliber must be sent back to Japan.  May take years, though.  And, of course, they don't want to be bashed because they stand out too much

Ken

... and for the LEs, one for each city, grand prix etc.... I jest in detest of course

(1) The GS is the ONLY mechanical watch maker group that is focusing 70% of the time and resources to time keeping accuracy during the assembly process. This is my personal observation, and no matter what other brands may claim, you can always place several of their watches together and watch how they begin to deviate over a week. You will find, and I know this is VERY anecdotal evidence ( I am a doctor), that all GS have very low deviation.

Why is this at all relevant, when in the past, in my wn words, I have said that watchmaking is much more art today then yesterday (before quartz)?

Becuase paradoxically, the move toward aesthetics and complications and uber finish, hae created a small but GROWING void in the old challenge...accuracy.

(2) One can make an accurate watch. But only GS can make and also deliver it remaining accurate for some years.

relevant..as above. I own enough Patek/Lange/Rolex to make this anecdotal statement. However, I will defend these brands as they lack full resources to do BOTH high accuracy targets AND superlative hand finish at which they can often beat SEIKO.

(3) Finally. ALL serious collectors should want a GS. This is because one always needs two or more reference watches. The GS is a reference level product for (a) finish (b) assembly standards (3) accuracy of an aftermarket piece (4) packaging (5) soul or the absence of it.

Reference products are not what I would call "top level, and super duper high end", they are calibration products which are of course in the highest end, but are needed not so much for pleasing the buyer and his desires, but to help the buyer enjoy ALL of his watches, Swiss, German etc...to another higher level. He will see things in his Lange and Dufour that he did not see before.

" you have made the perfect watch, I cannot think of how to tell you anyway to make it better" Philippe Dufour to GS and Credor during a private teaching session in the Seiko SUWA spring drive master watch room.

after visiting Seiko...I came back..made up my mind to make a downpayment for the MB&F4. Because my faith that watchmaking is still a serious DISCIPLINE for 108,000 workers in Japan..a country with 3 years of negative economic growth...humbled and encouraged me.

It made me look at my MB&F watches, my Rolexes, my Pateks and many AHCI in a fresh new and good light.

It also made me pursue the collecting of solid gold GS watches...that is another story.