Horological Meandering

alas if you get your time off of your mobile phone, you might not understand this obsession, but it comes from the saying

"man who has two watches never knows what time it is"

I resolved to solve this problem, with a "atomic clock" that turned out to be extremely UN-reliable. And I don't mean Ulysse Nardin.

So I got a precise and reliable clock. Some of you have seen this one before - it's the clock I use to set my watches.
I like it because it's easy to read, the hands hit the markers, and the battery lasts a couple years.

But the annual time-change exercise got me to thinking. What if I could do better? Not only a good time-keeper, but a good time-checker and date-provider as well.

Where should I turn?  I ended up talking with the guy who sold me the Glashutte. He had gone on to an Arbiter master clock - a device that generates "legally-traceable time"

Well. Harumph.

Not to be outdone, I too dialed up eBay and waited. A few weeks, a few purchases later and I brought all this stuff home (unable to hide it from my wife)

I have also had to re-teach myself serial communications, soldering, BNC connector pin-outs, and become best friends with the ESE company. Oh yes, and order up a Radio Systems remote for the monster 4" red-LED display timer on the top of the stack (as it is meant to be wall-mounted).

This is all stuff used in radio and TV stations, atomic energy plants, military facilities, etc.

The top silver unit is an ESE 185A MASTER CLOCK (sounds impressive, doesn't it?). A master clock feeds the correct time and date to other devices. Thus all the pieces I have here are fed by the master clock and do not require setting on their own. Below the Master Clock is a timer (for timing and counting up and down - a chronograph if you will). But you can set a time period using the toggles on the right, then push a button and it shows up on the LED display.

Below is the time and date display (.56" amber numbers). I'd really like to have one of those for each room .... Below that is a .56" LED unit that will display either time or date, and below that a 1" LED unit that will also show either time or date. What's missing is the real prize - the large format display for BOTH time and date. I haven't seen one on eBay but I can't bring myself to buy one new. But I might.

My thought is to have one display in the watch factory in the basement for those calibrations and battery replacements, one display in the one in the room with the watch case for setting of ornery watches that have gone dead without me noticing, and one for last minute checks in the living room where all my clanging, bonging striking clocks reside. These displays will talk to Mr MASTER CLOCK and get his instructions.

How accurate is the MASTER CLOCK? ESE assure me it's within 10 nanoseconds of reference time and calibrated to length of antenna wire, longitude/latitude, etc.

This is all to help my mechanical and quartz watches do their best.

Sigh. I'm nuts.

Cazalea

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READ ON FOR MORE
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The GPS master clock differs from the garden variety "atomic clock" (technically these are not atomic, but are radio-controlled clocks) in its approach to providing accurate times.

Bear with me while I go into excruciating detail on the alternatives:

Radio or atomic clocks or watches get their signal in the USA directly from radio station WWVB near Ft Collins, in Colorado. It's operated by the US Naval Observatory.  Other stations include BPC in China, DCF77 in Germany, JJY in Japan, and MSF in the UK. These clocks are standalone devices and powered by the mains or batteries.

Master clocks either catch or generate their own time signal, and broadcast it on to other clocks or devices. They produce what is known as "legally-traceable time" which is required for broadcasters, power facilities, military installations, telephone exchanges, weather stations, etc.

You have various choices for maintaining your master clock:

SET IT YOURSELF

•   quartz master clocks are self-contained with temperature-stabilized crystal oscillators to stay stable within a second a month (this is comparable to the best quartz watches from Citizen or Grand Seiko) and is what my Glashutte clock represents
  

GET IT FROM NIST (National Institute of Standards & Technology)

•   AC line frequency clocks are able to maintain time by referencing the 60 Hz frequency of our public power, because even though voltage may drop, we maintain the frequency (at least the US does)

•   modem master clocks dial up to the Observatory multiple times a day on a phone line

•   NTP server master clocks are connected to networks and get their time reference via continual connection to a time server ( PC clocks occasionally reset themselves this way, if required)

•   Serial master clocks get a signal by serial port or USB port connection to a PC  which gets its signal (but are only as accurate as the PC clock is)

•   GPS master clock/time code generators get a time reference from as few as 3 or as many as 12 of the fleet of approx 50 NAVSTAR satellites in orbit   Click for more.  This is what I am setting up now.

•   airborne time code generators get their reference from the satellites as well, but are optimized to be continually moving, not stationary; used primarily in high-end and military aircraft

GENERATE YOUR OWN TIME

•  Cesium and other radioactive decay clocks "make" their own time signals - available outside the US or as surplus from military use in the $2500-50,000 range. I am resisting this option!

WHY?
Master clocks and "time code generators" produce output signals that can be interpreted by other devices that need time information.  For example in a recording studio or broadcasting facility, one (backed-up) time server will supply exact time references to all equipment across the facility, so everyone is on "the same time". How else would we know exactly WHEN a wardrobe malfunction occurs? And the duration of the malfunction... and avoid those embarrassing silent or dark intervals on the television ...

Other more mundane uses include college and other school campuses, time-clock systems in large companies, ship-board clocks, etc. Anywhere that you want everyone on the same time and you DON'T want to or CAN'T set or reset each of them separately.

TRANSMISSION OF THE TIME
The time code generator devices send a variety of signals in various formats to indicate time, date, top of the hour, etc.

•   NIST ( click here to see what the Navy sends out to your clock)
•   Network time protocol
•   SMPTE (Society of Motion Picture/Television)
•   IRIG-B or E
•   EBU
•   ASCII
•   Ethernet
•   1PPS, 10 PPS
•   ESE TC 89 or ESE TC90 (proprietary to ESE - manufacturer of clocks & displays)

Blah blah blah ....

My new clock is supposed to be accurate to within 10 nanoseconds of reference time; equal to the best in the industry. Anyway, it's a lot of fun for $800.

An impressive clock to say the least!

It could be our PST. Purists Standard Time!
What a setup! Thanks for sharing.

... but I am happy enough with my SEIKO Quartgz Astron, which is rated 10 sec per year.  Since my purchase several maonths ago, I check often with the internet time.gov , it hasn't divereted even a half second.  And that is my reference "clock" for my watches.  To me, it is enough.....

Mster Clock - I have owned a few of them to sync all the digital equipment of my audio system.  That works VERY well and it is EXTREMELY important when you own multiple digital products - transport, DAC, digital equalizer (or room frequency characteristics correction system), etc.  That is what I know to be a master clock, lika a conductor of an orchestra, not necessarily the MASTER of the universal TIME

But your effort is really applaudable and commendable.  I hope to see your "system" one day!

Ken

Hi Ken,

Yes, you are right there is another way to use the term master clock.

It also appears in a studio for recording or broadcasting. However now we are talking about master clocks that run equipment as opposed to the ones I described earlier which are generally master clocks that people use to run themselves.

In a normal consumer situation, each piece of media equipment has its own reference time driven from a quartz crystal. When you are using multiple stereo or video components in a chain, and mixing, blending, weaving in and out, plus cutting audio and video separately, it's best to have one clock for everyone. That way things can stay synchronized. That's commonly done on the high-end RECORDING and EDITING end of the media chain.

Of course, there are high-end people at the CONSUMING end of the chain, and the best of their systems are able to employ a single clock to run their playback equipment.

Is it safe to say you have a nice stereo?

(I think I know the answer!)

Cazalea

I have modified all my digital equipments to accept single clock signal from the handmade master clock (not by me, though) so that each equipment runs on single clock signal.  Note that the clock does not have to be accurate like Astron for this application - the point is to run all th eqeuipment with single clock.  For consumer products these days (I mean, like iPod or something like that - that I have never owned or have intention to in the forseeable future), the difference is negligible and you wouldn't have to care or notice.  But when used with high-end equipment, professional or pro-sumer, which is used in the dedicated room whose walls and ceiling and floor and corners have been treated like the concert hall, with signal cables and power cables cost in the range close to many thousands USD each (all silver inside with proper shielding to avoid interference),  and when the goal of the user/owner is to achieve the re-production of the live performance at home, syincing the clock for all the digital equipment makes lots of difference, although such re-production is impossible.  The audiophools try their best to get the sound as close to the real as possible.  Yeah, audiophools.  I used to be oen of them

Now that interest is now set aside (maybe will resume in the future when I am much older living in the place with  more rooms) and my interest has shifted to horology....  For that, I am reasonable happy with Astron as my Master Clock - honestly, I want to use the radio wave based daily self adjusted watch (another SEIKO's, last year model at Basel: home.watchprosite.com =) which is in theory always super accurate to the universal standard time, but it has to be always close to the window or outside, so it doesn't work well at my place now. 

Yeah!  Looking forward to the 130th Grand Seiko!

Ken

I used to work in a broadcast station, a post production studio and the audio mixing room. Let me try to give a simple explanation to our reader why do we need all there crazy equipment.

The purpose of having a 'master clock' although in the industry we often refer it to timecode generator. Is to have a reference of time. Now the timecode generator is usually a black box with nothing on it. Is a continuos time signal that doesn't necessary set to the correct time. Why? We just need a time reference for all the equipment to follow. Imagine a 50 person trapeze in blindfold that's what the machine need to do on the daily basis. Quarter of a second delay result in an utmost disaster. We need the time signal to be constant. Not necessary sync to the correct time.

Then you may ask why do we have a master clock that's accurate to the time? Well the truth is only the broadcast station need one. The reason is to get the program on air at the correct time. Most media station won't need one. However with the recent development of high speed network which make possible of huge data flow. It is possible we can just stream the audio/video across any where. For convenient sake media station now equip themselves with the master clock that set to accurate time so that a live feed is possible. (Straight from the source not process by the broadcast station) it's a rare situation since the consequence are high.

So there you have it. Often times the supplier in my industry sell us overkill equipment ie 12 feet tripod that can hold half a ton of weight. The same goes for timecode generator that is set accurate time via GPS. Is a nice to have but not have to have.

Also the master clock usually doesn't 'control' the equipments we have the main console for that.
Think of it as a watch for the studio. Not unlike the watch we have. Is crazy if the watch start controlling us!

One thing is for sure. You're mad! In a good way

I would love to see all these machines recalibrate themselves powering up after a proper shut down. That's lotsa light dancing

Best
Tyler

This is the reason why you come to a forum like this! Awesome! I learnt something and you may have just inspired me to make contraption that wont work
J.

Nice setup, I use to run a similar system. A friend of mine did some work at NIST on their Quantum Logic Clock. It takes something like 3.5 billion years before it'll lose or gain 1 second. That is a time keeping system I can get behind.

I am only slightly familiar with Master Clocks and their purpose, but my question concerns yours in particular.

The correction signal comes from GPS satellites...but what is the 'escapement' in the unit itself? 'normal' quartz? Temp compensated quartz? Or am I missing something?

 

 

Not sure about the ESE unit cazalea has but the time servers I've managed in the past used a rubidium oscillators to maintain accuracy for several months in case of a GPS outage.

Got some reading and comprehending to do now.

Here's the answer:

The normal radio-controlled clock queries the NIST RADIO signal once a night, usually 2-4am. It uses that signal to correct itself. It does this once a day (to save battery life) and doesn't care if it misses a day or three.

In my case, in SoCal, we don't get the signal well and my cheap clock always misses daylight savings changes. I have to put it outside in the driveway overnight.

Whereas the ESE master clock is locked not on a weak radio signal, but triangulates on up to 6 satellite GPS signals and is always reading. That's shown by the green light GPS LOCK on front of the clock. If there is a momentary loss, the light goes out and if there is an error in the format of the signal, a red light illuminates.

If the signal is lost, the clock depends on its internal quartz clock. There are various levels of accuracy depending upon what you want to pay. The one I have is an old model but the highest accuracy. You can buy one with 2-3 seconds a week precision, but the spec for the 185 is drift of less than 33msec a day or about a second a month if all the satellites were down. There's also a uninterrruptable power supply battery inside to keep it running if power goes out (only about 4 hours though).

There's a fascinating brochure from the people who run our reference clocks (paid for by our tax dollars)  and it explains about radio-controlled clocks.

click here for radio control clock info from NIST

Thanks for reading along on this somewhat watch-related topic!

Cazalea
This message has been edited by cazalea on 2011-04-05 21:35:48

So the internal quartz is beating away at whatever frequency, with constant correction by comparing signals from GPS satellites.

So in essence this is actually timed from the Rubidium oscillators (that romanv mentions above) that the GPS satellites carry. A 10^12 accuracy signal correcting - via a whole lotta other stuff - a 10^5 signal. Very cool.

This is in no way pointless...The problem is: Now I want one!

I've been thinking about doing that. Especially since the time I found out that radio controlled clocks are not that entirely relable. Now I use two for reference + streming from the interne,t just to be dead shure when Im setting The time of my mechanical Watches. But I can see that they dont agree to the split second. Suddenly impelling vertigo - that it is not entirely correct. And thinking about not being able to know the RIGHT is scaring me and makes me feel like I'm lost in the dark age. I have many times thought that of getting equipment like that. luckily I don't have enough space do what you have done .... Now what I would do, was to get one in every room....

Best
Christian

and I am going to have to re-read your post to make sure I got everything straight.

Best regards,

George

cheers

PAt

The men in white suits are coming for you as we speak.

They have a nice padded cell waiting for you. By the way, this cell has 50 embedded wall clocks ALL showing different times.

 

Regards,

Richard.

Thank you for sharing it with me and showing me a possiblity as to how it can be done!

Cheers

Stephen

Wow!  And my wife always rolls her eyes when I time my pieces (and hers) to the time.gov or emerald time app on the iphone!

What a setup and thanks for the detailed info. 

This leads to another discussion during our lunch at Arry's with Dr. No. 

With watch enthusiasts, there are typically two schools of thought.  One:  accuracy in an mechanical timepiece is a measure of its horological standing.  The other:  A mechanical watch, while it keeps good enough time, holds other intrinsic values to the wearer. 

One example, being a PAM lover, I have asked many times on other forums about the accuracy of some of their pieces.  More often then not, the response would be, use your cel phone and/or they are not concerned over a few minutes. 

I just find it interesting.  I however fall in the former and would like to have my pieces as accurate or at least consistent. 

Great setup and thought provoking. 

I still wonder where I could put this kind of stuff at my home, where I don't even find a place for an hyopthetic Atmos.



Best,

Nicolas. This message has been edited by amanico on 2011-04-06 08:45:12

for all the satellite clock displays. Remember now I have to find a way to place them everywhere in rooms without ruining the house decor... a much harder task!

No message body

I envy your setup. You took precision to a new level.

Just when I was so happy with an app for my iPhone (Emerald Time - is free) that averages the time of four NTP time servers!!

Cheers

I'll have to a review of my new Bulova Precisionist one of these days, spot on after a week.  A quartz without thermo-compensation, just high frequency accuracy.  Makes me wonder how long the battery will last.  Thanks for the 'atomic' timeout, very cool...in a wwv kind of way....    ^_^

Congratulations - a fantastic set up.  I am in full obsessive respect of your set up!  It might be fun if you could tap that internal oscillator to show you fractions of a second; say a run-up in hundredths...but then what is the best method to sync analog mechanical watches...hmm.

I can't wait to show this to my wife, so that she knows that I am not NEARLY as crazy as some others. Of course, she knows about this forum, and will simply pool all of us together as being equally obsessed.

thanks for the post, can't wait to hear your next evolutionary progression.

--Sancerre

That is awesome! I set my watches to a computer, and will wait until the seconds hit zero in order to synch up as accurately as possible. My wife makes fun of me constantly, but now I can show her this to prove I am not as nuts as she thinks. Very cool, and thanks for the post.

Stewart

and can warehoused with current hi-fi system and disguise them as hifi equipment!!

if i am looking for time and date accurancy, but not to the fanatical level as you, and have space for just one "stack", with a budget not exceeding usd1500....what should i buy?

 

best, Horo

i find a website with atomic time specific to my postcode is accurate enough for me, but i'm not in your league Mike. if thats your time telling kit i dont want to see your audio equipment

have fun

G