Horological Meandering

Hi All,

In this tenth anniversary year of PuristS, and just a few days away from the start of the IGOTT, it is fitting that we interview Thomas Mao, the founder and Chief Purist. While Thomas understandably wanted the focus to be on the ThePuristS and PuristSPro, I know you will want to hear a little bit more about the man himself and what makes him ‘tick’. And yes, if I had a stethoscope handy I would not have been at all surprised if there was a ticking to be heard in Thomas’ chest.

How did your interest in horology start?
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Like any young kid I was fascinated by highly complex mechanical things. Comic books were one of my first passions and in the back of the comic book they were offering chronographs, which I though was so cool, because it had a lot to do with the whole macho/athletic thing. I ordered one, although it turns out I was ripped off – when you stopped the chronograph it actually stopped the watch as well!

What kept my attention was that I noticed how others were attracted to specific brands and were willing to pay significant sums of money for one brand versus another for what amounted to essentially the same thing. That launched me on my lifelong interest in consumer psychology and branding and the Holy Grail search to define intrinsic value.

“There was definitely a tie-in between cars and the cool factor of a chronograph timepiece.”

When did you get your first watch, and do you remember what it was?
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A Vacheron Constantin (VC) followed in short order by an Audemars Piguet (AP) and I have stuck with AP since then. There was a ‘Big Three’ back then too. AP was the youngest of the three brands and their design style was younger and cooler. Patek Philippe (PP) was much more conservative and VC was regarded as the great watch of my Grandfather’s generation. I don’t have the VC any more. I would like to have it, but I couldn’t afford to keep it, so it was sacrificed for the next watch.

Have your collecting habits changed over time?
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Yes, and it’s consistent with my view on life in general – the concept of things returning back to where they began. I look at life not so much as a circle, but as a spiral, whereby you return to the same point but on a different plane. You start with a general innocence about things, and return to what you love, but with a more intellectual overlay.

Is it love at first sight for you and a watch, or a slowly smoldering affair that lasts a lifetime?
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As a general rule, these days a watch has to catch my eye. I still appreciate what goes into the technical aspects, but if it’s ugly, its ugly, you can’t get over that. The same applies to finish – I’d rather get a beautiful, reasonably finished watch than an incredibly finished watch that to my eyes is ugly.

How do you approach the assessment of a new watch? Are you a details man or do you take in the overall aesthetics?
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Both. But the problem with details is that you can get bogged down in them and not see the big picture. The flip side is that you might see the big picture, but it’s the details that kill you. So it has to be both. Now if the question was: “what is the higher priority?” I can sequentialise them but couldn’t ultimately say that one is more important than the other. It is the overall appearance that first catches my eye, then I drill down into the details and finally I take a step back at the last moment before pulling the trigger to decide if the whole is indeed greater than the sum of the parts.

Which watch(es) would you never part with?
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Over the past 35 years there is one watch that I consistently miss when it is not on my wrist. And that would be my AP Grande and Petite Sonnerie. Why? I love the Sonnerie complication more than any other. Why the AP? Well there is a certain simplistic purity to the design that if someone doesn’t know what they are looking at, it looks like a simple three-hand, time-only watch. They wouldn’t realize that it is one of the ultimate Holy Grail complications in horology. On top of that it is thin enough to wear, and is in titanium, so comfortable on the wrist. Some might say it’s boring, but to me the flip side of boring is that it’s an eternal classic.

Is wear-ability an issue? (Thomas was wearing the PuristS MB&F Chocolate Frog during the interview)
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The first time I saw the frog in pictures I would have said it’s a caricature; everything that had gone wrong with the industry. But living with it for the last several months it’s grown on me. It’s like this in life too; the Frog was not love at first sight, but I’m very comfortable with it now. It’s not a statement watch, but it’s a fun watch that defies conventions and yet somehow works.

Who is your favorite manufacture and why?
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AP is a combination of a lot of things that are important to me. Family owned as opposed to a heartless conglomerate. They have incredible technology and out of the box thinking when approaching chronometric issues. It still has brand cachet that is leading edge, young, cool and yet has substance that only comes with maturity. It has that rare combination of being substantial but still cool.

“Profit is not a human value, it is a commercial abstract.”

Who is your favorite watchmaker and why?
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Kari Voutilainen is someone who I respect immensely as a watchmaker, as a human being and as a smart businessman. It’s rare to find all three qualities in the one individual. Another watchmaker who is coming onto my radar is Ludovic Ballouard. I have many other friends in the industry. Someone like Max Busser is a visionary businessman.

What are the major changes you have seen in the industry?
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The biggest problem facing the industry is that it’s so successful. This has led to a lot of bad practices. It has gone from a lean period in the 80’s, through the exuberances of the late 90’s, to the last decade. During the global financial crisis there was some overcorrection. Over exuberance to over conservatism and it’s now swinging back the other way.

Are you conscious of the influence you have and do you go out of your way to avoid influencing others, particularly in their choice of watches?
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That’s a tough question to answer sincerely. If I answer “yes” it makes me seem like an arrogant #*@&%, but if I say “no” it would be disingenuous. The simple answer is “yes”. I have seen people bid at auctions just because I was bidding on a piece. And people come to me and thank me for opening their eyes to this brand or that brand. So despite being reluctant, I acknowledge that I do have some influence.

But is that a good thing or bad thing? I do have a certain sense of responsibility and I can’t say things as casually as I used to. I have to consider the effects of what I say. But to be clear, I have no interest in making people follow what I like.

I go to great pains to set up the proper context, in case people misunderstand the point I am tying to make. Many people want a simple answer: “what watch should I buy?”, “what’s the best chronograph?” They don’t want to hear the context, but the truth is you want them to find the right answer for themselves. More generally PuristS wants to provide the techniques so that readers can find the answers for themselves.

Does knowing too much about the industry detract from the enjoyment of a watch? Is it like watching a "making of" special for a favorite movie and some of the magic is lost?
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There an old saying that if you could see how they make sausages, you would never eat sausages again. That’s not the case with watchmaking. Knowing how watches are made actually increases my intellectual respect for watchmaking.

On the other hand, knowing the commercial priorities that go into the decision processes around watchmaking as a business, I can say unequivocally that that has distracted from my appreciation of watch collecting.

If you could have any job in the watch industry what would it be?
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The one that I have right now.

Which is what?
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[Laughing] Trying to help and guide people to find their own way toward what is real and meaningful to them. Not to me, not to the brands, not to the watchmakers, but meaningful to them.

What other passions do you have apart from horology?
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High performance cars.

Equal to horology?
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You know, it’s kind of the difference between your wife and your mates. Sometimes you get sick of the all the macho talk in the bar and want to be with you loving wife, and sometimes you want to be at the bar downing a few beers with your mates.

When I’m sick of watches that don’t work I want to jump in a high-performance sports car, drive around the block and feel the raw power and exhilaration, but when the car won’t start I get just as frustrated and run back to the watches. [Laughing] Jumping from the fry pan into the fire.

Tell us how ThePuristS website came to be.
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It started out as a blog back in 1997. It was the culmination of 21 years of reading horological writings that were just regurgitating information and advertising material. I wanted to use the new media, share my own experiences and reach out to other seasoned collectors to share their experiences.

In 2001, with the advent of forum software, we took the next step to an interactive live community. Through the magic of the Internet we could interact with people from all over the world.

It started off as a completely non-commercial, hobbyist-driven site. But it was never lackadaisical or un-professional. It was always held to the highest standards. A lot of people confuse hobbyist with casual, but we were never that.

After several years of growth and carrying the site, even with the generous support of volunteer moderators, it got too much. I came to the point where I realized I had to create something sustainable and with lasting value. That’s when we moved to the self-sustaining model of PuristSPro.

“I didn’t want to create Watchaholics Anonymous.”

Has PPro fulfilled those requirements?
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As a control freak, where I used to be involved in every decision made and I read everything posted on the forum, it has got to the point where I can’t read one-tenth of the stuff. And in my new role as a traveling ambassador for the community, I can’t do this. I have had to let go but I am generally happy. The site is independently managed by a true Purist Executive and Moderator team. It is something I am proud of it, even if some of the decisions made are not exactly as I would make them. And in reality I wouldn’t want them to be.

When you spun off PPro, did you expect it to bring different people in?
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Being a Purist doesn’t mean that you can’t be a realist. You realize that human beings are very diverse. This doesn’t mean selling out to the lowest common denominator. We have to have broader appeal, but not at the expense of selling out our basic principles, otherwise you have no reason for existence.

How does PuristS differ from other horology sites?
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I have no interest in doing what has already been done; I don’t want to copycat. If I am going to do something I want to add value or I want to do something that hasn’t been done before. So is PuristS different? I hope so, otherwise I would have wasted my time. Is it different enough that it adds value? Hopefully the answer is “yes” because it is a vibrant, successful community. By virtue of its existence it validates that there is something there of value.

Is "PuristS" more than just a website to you?
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Absolutely. It’s a philosophy of life. Even down to the choice of PuristS as a name. What does PuristS have to do with watchmaking? A Purist is someone who is focused on intrinsic values. Some people mistakenly believe that PuristS are difficult, or focus on meaningless details, but I would say that they are all judgmental responses. A Purist is someone who cares about innate value, the fundamental essence of things. A Purist understands the right answer to the right question.

Do you feel that people use the PuristS site to present their watch to the community to obtain validation?
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I may get arrows and bullets shot at me for saying this, but humans are incredibly weak and egotistical needy creatures. I am too, but at least I recognize it. [Laughing] I enjoy the validation but I don’t need it. But that’s not the sole purpose. As a true Purist you continue the education, the maturation process, until you understand what drives you, which allows you to be tolerant of the people undergoing the same journey.

“One of the basic precepts of social theory is that humans want to be unique individuals, but they also want validation.”

Has PuristS evolved as you expected? What have been the unexpected turns?
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No, it developed along one of several predicted possible scenarios and nothing really took me by surprise.

What has been the greatest pleasure from the site?
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Finding people in far flung corners of the world (who don’t know who I am) saying: “you should check out this great website called ThePuristS – the people there are really cool and know what they are talking about.” Getting unsolicited emails thanking me for creating a second home away from the hardships of real life.

What has been the greatest pain from the site?
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Petty jealousy and competitiveness where there shouldn’t be any. 178 means we all prosper together. It’s a bit of a secret code for old timers, but it’s also a deeply held belief that by working together we are all better off.

How has the Internet changed horology? Is it for the best?
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It’s changed horology tremendously. Ninety percent of the independents wouldn’t have been able to make it past the first year without the Internet. PuristS is not the only site to support them, but we were one of the earliest.

Where do you see watch journalism heading?
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The watch market in general is growing. The absolute numbers of watch enthusiasts is growing even quicker. Sites like PPro add liquidity to the market, reduce hesitation to get into the market, and therefore increase the market. It’s a benevolent (as opposed to a vicious) cycle. The growth of watch journalism is unquestionably going to continue. The barrier to entry for self-professed experts to grab the microphone via Face Book, or whatever else, is also removed and that’s both good and bad. Noise goes up logarithmically; substantive commentary goes up barely at all.

Print media versus electronic?
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It will be at least another generation before print media will be gone. People still like to read a magazine on the toilet rather than an iPad!

Are we going to see a PuristS Magazine?
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Possibly. In the spirit of working together, if we find synergy and complementary values then we would consider a print version of PuristS sometime in the future.

How do you (can you) define what a Purist is?
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A Purist is somebody who understands and respects the essential qualities of the thing they are investigating or learning about. You can get as abstract as you want over this, but essentially it is the essence.

What do you think of the amalgamation of companies that has occurred over the last 10 years or so?
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If you mean consolidation under corporate umbrellas, I come from a management consulting background where structures are thought of as important. I don’t see consolidation as either good or evil. Richemont is proud of the fact that there is competition between their brands. In contrast there is more synergy in the Swatch Group. In the end it is about using the right structure in the right way for the right purpose.

“The beauty of a watch is feeling the individual spirit of the watchmaker.”

How important are "in-house" movements to you? (That eternal question!)
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It’s like that old joke about a difference with no significance. Absolutely everything else being equal, I would probably prefer an in-house movement. As much as I love Lamborghini and their engines, I would rather not see a Ferrari with a Lamborghini engine. I want Ferrari to have a Ferrari engine.

But it’s completely unimportant if there are other variables such as accuracy, reliability, stability. Those other criteria are far more important.

And I hate ideological dogma and those that say: “I would never buy anything other than a completely in-house movement.” And those beasts do not really exist. People who take that position are much like religious fanatics – they don’t really know what they are arguing against, it’s just the position they hold.

Do you think the high-end Seiko watches (Grand Seiko, Credor) seek to emulate Swiss designs or do they exhibit a different Eastern aesthetic sensibility?
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I don’t see the Eastern sensibility, but I do see the Seiko aesthetic which is very functional, not a lot of embellishment. Their finish is fine, but industrial, and they don’t pretend it to be otherwise. And I have great respect for this. I’m not exactly certain what the Eastern aesthetic would mean in a watch. On the other hand I do see historical continuity. It doesn’t look like its trying to be a Vacheron or other Swiss watch.

Are watches different from other luxury items?
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In many respects no, in some respects yes. This goes back to intrinsic value. To understand what make a Hermes bag different from a Gucci bag. For many people the luxury is not in the product, it’s in the brand. They don’t care that it’s a bag, they just care about the brand. So there is some overlap of what makes a luxury car the same as a luxury bag or a luxury watch.

Luxury from a PuristS standpoint means that an item is better than it needs to be. Utilitarian functional need is different from psychological need. Luxury items fill something beyond pragmatic functional utility.

Can you tell us what this quote means to you: “A Purist does not believe in gilt by association. Respect, AND disdain, have to be earned...”
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[Laughing] Gilt was not a misspelling. I was playing on the superficial aspect. And you might be guilty by association, but it’s a halo effect. Rolex makes a remarkable watch that has built up a cult-like following, which has then built up a brand name. The whole idea of gilt by association is that something takes on a superficial patina of luxury. Now whether it actually deserves it or not is another question. This brings us back to intrinsic value and what makes a product or a brand great. Like the hard core wine purist who believes that there are no great winemakers, just great vintages, or even just great bottles within a vintage.

Where would you like PuristS to be in another 10 years?
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I would like to see it continue to advance into other regions, into areas where we are not as widely read, to grow enough to justify translation into other languages. The downside of that is segregation into different language groups. I would like to see us return to out technical roots as well.

‘Live’ interview conducted by AndrewD in Hong Kong, February 27, 2011. Questions by AndrewD and dxboon.



*edited spelling mistake - Daos
 This message has been edited by AndrewD on 2011-05-26 06:44:43 This message has been edited by dxboon on 2011-05-26 07:04:31 This message has been edited by AnthonyTsai on 2011-05-31 06:48:17

Great job Andrew and Daos, and thank you Dr. M.  This is just the thing to be reading on this anniversary.

Congratulations and thank you!

respo

Great interview, Andrew!

Thomas has been, and continues to be, one of the most important mentors to me in the world of horology.  He offered me encouragement in the infancy of my love affair with watches, and I continue to learn so much from him every day.  He's generous, maybe even to a fault, but it's this largesse of spirit; a willingness to share time and knowledge with all, that is one of the things that I adore about him.

TM, thanks for everything.  You are awesome!

Cheers,
Daos

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Nothing but my highest respect and appreciation.

A very humble and down to earth human being, who is always willing to help you out in any way possible.

Congratulations, Thomas on reaching this milestone! May the future bring many more riches and blessings to you and yours.

Thank you, and thanks to Andrew and Daos for this wonderful post.

Best regards,

Alejandro

Thank you so much for all the contribution to this field of dream(er)s.

The earliest I can recall talking with you was about this watch you posted for sale in June 2004 - and you were willing to ship it to me for inspection.
I thought about the site - THIS IS A DIFFERENT KIND OF PLACE!

Mike

This message has been edited by cazalea on 2011-05-26 10:30:25

Thank you, Andrew, for all of the foresight and effort you have brought to bear in order to give us this revealing glimpse of the good Dr Mao. Daos: thank you for correcting the spelling error.

St Thomas of Mao: why did you stop there??? We could have read pages more of that stuff! You will get plenty of plaudits below; clever words in several languages, hyperbolic (if deserved) celebrations of all that you are and all that you do. From this acolyte, though, please accept an all-encompassing votive which is as simple as it is complete: 'thanks'.

Cheers,
pplater.

LOL!  Yeah, putting the "Hong" back in Hong Kong (I bet Andrew's ever-present iPad "helped" create the typo in the first place.  He loves that thing.  I am starting to worry that his iPad is sleeping in the bed with him.) is basically the extent of my contribution to Andrew's excellent write-up of Thomas' words of wisdom.  I can't claim anything further!

Daos

nt

Thank you very much Andrew and Daos for putting this interview together and of course a big thanks to Thomas for being there to provide the answers.

'A Purist is someone who cares about innate value, the fundamental essence of things. A Purist understands the right answer to the right question.'
I agree with this statement wholeheartedly.

Filip

Thanks to Andrew, Daos and Thomas for this great interview. Having been fortunate to get to know Thomas a little bit over the past several years, I find he represents himself and his PuristS ideals with absolute consistency. Reading this has centered me well as I prepare for my trip to Las Vegas. Cheers! This message has been edited by glickman on 2011-05-26 11:32:59

TM refers to "life as a spiral, whereby you return to the same point but on a different plane. You start with a general innocence about things, and return to what you love, but with a more intellectual overlay."

I am totally with you. It happens to me constantly, it is the result of learning, digesting, understanding. In one way this is very enriching, it helps to better understand oneself. Its also very dangerous, if you don't understand it and tackle the spiral with too high a speed - centrifugal force will kick you out. Be careful not to let this happen!

Thomas, Andrew - excellently done, intellectually very enriching!

Cheers,
Magnus

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Big ups to Thomas. I've always had the utmost respect for that bloke.

Thanks for the great interview, guys.

Simplicity ( not pun, here ) and complexity.

Friendly  is also another way to describe him.

A  real pleasure to read our own Thomas through your post, Andrew.

Best,

Nicolas.

 

According to your description Amanico, Thomas is quite a paradox (simplicity and complexity, two seeming opposites). But that's all okay because he is friendly.

By the way, thank you for all of your good work here on PuristSPro!

When you meet him, in the real, I mean, he's a simple man, Monsieur, and a friendly one.

This paradox makes him very interesting to know, don't you think?

Best,

Nicolas.

He is definitely very interesting.

I would say that is a very accurate description of Thomas; complex here on the forums, and you can tell he's got even more in his mind than he can type on the computer without giving us a very long eulogy to read.

But in person, he is a young, energetic, simple (as you stated) and easy to understand, and sometimes I perceived an innocent youthful quality to him (this is hard to explain). Much more likable in person than even online (I hope that's taken as a compliment).

But being / staying simple is a thougher " vertu " to get...

Thomas does have it.

Now, we'll make him blush...



Best,

Nicolas.

PS: Are you going to Sin City?

This message has been edited by amanico on 2011-05-26 13:58:15

Being simple and being humble is indeed a difficult attribute.

I hope Thomas isn't too embarrassed.

I am indeed going to Sin City and I eagerly await to meet you and the other simple yet complex individuals who are there!

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this really should be 'Purist of the Decade' as it is the 10th anniversary.

i understand that you like to live under the radar Thomas and its nice to have met you, if only for an evening meal. this interview has revealed a lot about your thoughts on Horology, but nothing about you as a person which i'm sure was your intention

i hope to meet you again soon

Graham

Would you believe this Andrew if I told you this was the best interview I've ever seen/read in my admittedly short and inexperienced life?

I thank Andrew and Daos for asking hard questions and Dr. Mao for answering these difficult questions. It is evident that Dr. Mao understands human psychology very well and along with his team and staff, he has the ability to provide a platform that represents genuine value for all members here on PuristSPro.

Without a doubt, PuristSPro is the best multi-brand horology discussion forum open to all in the world. People here know what they're talking about, the cumulation of knowledge of the members on this website is extremely extensive, and being a proud member and a small contributor, I have learned more from this website about the technology and the industry than anywhere else in the world.

The question I have is PuristSPro has remained a site for the upper echelon of appreciators of horology, whereas other sites have a more diverse population of individuals who have different appreciation levels. We seem to discuss a bit more about mechanics, technology, and the industry a bit more than other forums. How has PuristSPro maintained this? I sometimes ask myself, why do I feel just so much more at home here than the other fantastic watch discussion forums that are out there as well. I don't know why I feel more at home, but probably it's because the group here shares many of the values I share. I really have to give kudos to the PuristSPro team and to the other members for making this place the best place to discuss about watches (and our many other cumulative passions) on the internet!

All in all, this forum is truly a place of immense value to me. I can only say to Dr. Mao, the management and moderator team, and to all the other members that you all have my undying thanks. This place is not run-of-the mill it's DIFFERENT, it's substantial, it has affected more individuals than all of us realize, in many ways more profoundly than all of us realize, there is something of true value here that is bigger than any one person, thought, or philosophy. Once again, THANK YOU to all!

Congratulations to Dr. Thomas Mao, Purist-of-the-Year and probably the decade if we had such a distinction. May PuristSPro age like a very fine wine, to the next ten years...

"Feeling so much more at home here,' really hit the nail on the head for me.

NT

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Thank you for the interview, Andrew, Daos, and TM.

Ken