Officine Panerai

Hi,

I seriously ask:

Do you think Panerai still has a right to be part of the Federation de la Haute Horlogerie after the reference 318 scandal?

How a company that shows as much disrespect to customers and collectors could be considered high horology?

Who is going to leave Panerai to take on the responsibility of this fiasco?

No I'm not kidding! I just can't believe it!

Best

Dje
This message has been edited by Dje on 2011-11-11 09:47:27 This message has been edited by Dje on 2011-11-12 05:15:50

10 years ago this might have been acceptable  but  today I think it's unfair to call Panerai a fashion brand.

To answer your and Dje his question ... YES Panerai belongs to the top watch brands.

No way I would compare it wit a Patek , Lange, VC or similar brands but imo they do belong in the IWC / JLC / GP / UN / ... category

With 8 inhouse movements we can't be talking about a fashion brand. They still use quite a lot modified ETA movements but I think it's safe to say that they will go for 100% inhouse sooner or later

That PAM318 was a mistake. We don't know why that happened.

But since 1993 they made more than 500.000 good, nice, reliable and well decorated movements ( both inhouse and modified èbauches) , Now, would you question their reputation because of these 150 ? We're talking about a 0.003% deviation

 

with all due respect as admirer of your straight forward and honest, from This message has been edited by Ares501 on 2011-11-11 14:22:00

with you. I also do not believe Panerai (at its present stage) can aspire to be inserted in the echelons of horology. But I also belive that Panerai is more a...state of mind...than a precision's tool. More of an historical reference than a horological one. I also believe that Richemont can and will bring Panerai forward and are justifed in planning to become part of the  elite. As for the 318 fiasco, far from condoning it, I personally don't care much and I don't think that will affect the grassroots Panerai's followers nor the cult status Panerai has always enjoied......

Cheers 

I mean that Panerai isn't about craft. It's about a recognised look, big size, etc. even their in house movements are largely machine assembled and decorated, like Omega, Rolex, etc.

To me the term HH means craft

I was searching for these posts to send them to you regarding your answer (Is there something wrong with the 318 ?)

then I found you on this post.

I'm a huge admirer of Panerai myself, but only a beginer my friend,

I'm am still learning about this singularities.

Best regards my friend and enjoy your Panerai on this Thanksgiving!

René

It is plain ignorant and shaddy for them to be stirring such issues. At least i preception towards Panerai has now changed a lot. And yes, too much hype has been going on with their brand and watches.

look at the norm specified by SHH

http://www.hautehorlogerie.org/en/fondation/about/manifesto/

 

http://www.hautehorlogerie.org/en/fondation/about/manifesto/product/

 

on the other hand when I see brands like Beaume & Mercier, Hermes, Van Cleef & Arpels, Chanel, Jean Richard, Bovet, TAG and a few others (all partners of FHH) then I don't think Panerai has something to worry about .... they are all member because they talk "business" not more not less which doesn't mean I approve the 318 debacle of course !!!

 

on the subject of being a fashion watch, I do not agree, IMO they were trendsetters (without knowing it), look how many brands jumped on the bigger is better wagon, while Panerai had 44-47mm from the real beginning in the early 1940's

If you don't like Panerai for their history connected to the war, than we shouldn't drive Mercedes and Volkswagen either or wear the IWC 'grosse fliegeruhr' also , there are just to many examples of brands that had a connection to the past wars and that still are very popular today, so personnaly I don't care to much about that.

PANERAI is born as a military secret, it was born out creative desire to ameliorate visibility and waterproofing at a time when those issues were serious problems when time was needed under-water. 'G.P.F.' was a creative and determined, he therefore succeeded to ameliorate the works of Rolex for which the family was a renowned agent. First the dial 'Radiomir', second the Dial 'Luminor' and in late 1940's the famous 'protecting device' which was patented and registered only in 1950’s.  Everything else belonged to the true industry horology.

The rebirth of PANERAI instruments/tool watch started in the 80's, when one of the contracted engineer 'AB' passionate and dedicated to military devices wished Panerai to re-offer timing instruments to the Italian combat units.  With difficulties, he convinced management to allow some researches and works. Based and driven by the foundation laid by 'G.P.F.' 40 years earlier, the first 2 timing instruments were prototyped, the root and the spirit was the same, ameliorating and adapting existing works of the horology industry for military purposes and use.

1990's, Due to PANERAI financial difficulties, the company decided and attempting an entry into the civil arena, they re-specified the legendary watches of the late 40's, outsourced and subcontracted the entire production. There was no new inventions or adaptation, safe for the right tool size, which met a tremendous success later or sort of forced most horology company to increase their watch-cases.

All this is to say, PANERAI roots and spirit was never to be a manufacturer of watches, their aim was to adapt and bring ameliorations to existing horological works to serve military purposes and usage.  What only mattered to PANERAI was legibility and waterproofing, the rest, at all times they knew it was not their business.

Since 1997, what we today see from PANERAI is market share,  there are no differences between PAM 318 and PAM 276, they are securely branded and giving time in a chosen style, the rest is the works of others regardless how presented.

 

So does Panerai alone has its place, in my opinion you no doubt answered it right; NO, regardless PAM 318's con

 

When you mentionned one of the contracted enginner " AB ", you spoke about Alessandro, not Angelo.

Thanks for this historical background, it is an important detail of the discussion.

Best,

Nicolas.

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After all, hordes of aficionados were always clamouring, begging,queueing,paying crazy premiums for their basic  models with a simple Unitas movements, albeit an LE perhaps. It was never about fine finishing as most regard it as a toolwatch with cult status, history and of course a lot of hype created by the 'brotherhood'. The talk with Panerai was always about dial colour, patina, hands, case configuration, pre-V or such and of course straps. Movements are seldom discussed.

So I guess Panerai misjudged the reaction when they presented the 318, thinking every one will be sold anyway because it's limited to 150 and may also provide another round for the flippers as well. With the powers of the internet and the fact that someone actually opened the caseback and unveiled a pic. of the movement, things began to turn sour and immediately damage control took effect with replacement movements being offered. I'm thinking not every one of these owners would be going for the replacement, as there is also the 'special and unique' factor to consider. He/She will be able to show the next generation the most authentic and 'untouched' movement in his very 'rare' Pam.

This IMO is just a small blip in the grand scheme of things and it will soon blow over. Not everyone is bothered by an 'unfinished' movement and after all, it's so much more than just a watch!

I have no axe to grind with Panerai or any watch brand. Just a personal opinion expressed in answer to Dje's question without critical intent. 

Cheers

fernando

is that here on the PAM 318 it clearly shows that Panerai has not even bothered to engrave the company name on the movement, but proudly specified it as an PANERAI OP II, and also as OP XXIX
see link: panerai.watchprosite.com 0

However they specified it like this:
Mouvement: Hand-wound mechanical, Panerai OP II caliber, 16 Lignes, 17 Jewels bridges personalized Panerai, Monometalic Glycydur balance, 21,600 alternations/hour. Incabloc anti-shock device.  Power Reserve 56 hours, Chronometer Certificate COSC

If someone had not open the case-back, they would continue cheating?

"If someone had not open the case-back, they would continue cheating?"

 

The watch was made 2.5 years ago, and this makes it imo strange. Like I said before, if they used that OP XXIX  in 10.000 watches (41x, 366, 005, ...) than it would be a huge scandal. But why in only 150 pieces ? That doesn't make any difference to Panerai. Maybe they saved 15K.

I just can't imagine one good reason why they used that OP XXIX 2.5 years ago. If it were for cost cutting they would have used it several thousand times.

And today we can be 100% sure they will never try tis again. So what was it good for ? Nothing, on the contrary

1. How do you know there is no more than 150 pieces?

2. With all their claimed controls, 150 pieces were checked for quality control and off to the market, claimed COSC certified?
the COSC certification alone is an enormous issue here, I am sure the COSC organisation would love to know and see those mouvements...

3. How did they come to have 'those' movements in stock?

4. Are you sure you can be so sure, 100% it will not happen again?

NOW, I would be very interested to have an official statement from COSC about the certification of those movements, as they ( the movements ) should be identifiable to receive the COSC...

Unless Panerai is frauding more than we know.... As they would have passed COSC for OP II and OP XXIX, which is clearly not the movement housed in the Pam 318...

Or unless COSC stands for Con Organization Service Certified... Monerai.

Hmmmm, the Truth is elsewhere, further to my East...



Best,

Nicolas

  This message has been edited by amanico on 2011-11-12 04:55:28

when saying 'further to my east'? China or India? ;-)

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No message body This message has been edited by amanico on 2011-11-12 05:03:15

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1. How do you know there is no more than 150 pieces?

Because they did not cheat with the movement. It was unacceptable that they used the XXIX if you knew what a XXIX was. But look at all their references and the only PAM with the XXIX is the PAM318

2. With all their claimed controls, 150 pieces were checked for quality control and off to the market, claimed COSC certified?
the COSC certification alone is an enormous issue here, I am sure the COSC organisation would love to know and see those mouvements...

uhmmm, NO, they NEVER said the XXIX was COSC. Not 2.5 years ago when they offered it and not in the documents that come with the watch

3. How did they come to have 'those' movements in stock?

Don't understand you question but doesn't every  movement  OPI OPII OPX OPXI looks like this before they did their modifications ?

4. Are you sure you can be so sure, 100% it will not happen again?

No, I am not but since they are willing to replace all the XXIX and when you see how negative and how huge the reaction from collectors, paneristi and other watch enthusiasts was... wel I'm pretty sure they won't dare to make that mistake ever again

Read this and tell me what you cannot understand...
As for what I know you are right, you know much more.
Enjoy your wear.

that my friend was published after all the 318 were sold

This is from the catalog (limited editions) printed in 2010 .... 318 were sold early 2009

The thing in the catalog is indeed wrong, probably a print error but in any case nobody bought the 318 in 2009 because of a print error in 2010.

This was the info you got if you were interested in 2009