Comments:
An Evening with Credor Minute Repeater + then some
An Evening with Credor Minute Repeater
The signage of SEIKO Holdings and SEIKO Watch Co. in the lobby.
I had a pleasure to be invited (well, truth be told, I persistently asked for it...) to SEIKO head office the other evening and could finally see, touch, handle and hear the Novelty Credor Minute Repeater which debuted at the Basel last month. This piece went to Basel, came back and was displayed at Wako (high-end department store at the Ginza 4-chome crossing, owned by SEIKO) for two weeks and was on its way back to Shiojiri Manufacture for further refinement/ tuning. So this exact specimen is the one some of you actually saw, touched, or heard in Basel.
1. Where is this made by who?
I think I have to explain a little bit the story about the two major manufactories of SEIKO here. There is one in Tohoku Region (where the major disaster hit recently) called Morioka Seiko Instruments Inc. in which there is SEIKO Shizukuishi Watch Studio. I reported the factory visit in February home.watchprosite.com. There is another major factory in Nagano prefecture, near Suwa City, called SEIKO Epson Shiojiri factory. That's right, this one belongs to SEIKO Epson Corporation, which is a separate public company listed on Tokyo Stock Exchange, a different entity from SEIKO Watch or SEIKO Holdings or SEIKO Insruments Inc. which owns Morioka Seiko and Shizukuishi Watch Studio. There is no cross holding of the stocks between SEIKO Holdings and SEIKO Epson - again, both are listed public companies. SEIKO Epson is far more famous for its printer products, as you may know. Watch division of SEIKO Epson is really the fraction of its total revenue.
This somewhat strange organization is due to its history that involves some influence of the WW II. As I explained the history of SEIKO in the Shizukuishi visit report, there was SEIKOSHA which was making clocks and very early part of watches and then DAI-NI (The Second) SEIKOSHA was later set-up which started making only wrist watches. They were, of course, sister companies owned by the same parent entity. And there was the War and DAI-NI SEIKOSHA moved its major part of production facilities to Suwa, Nagano to avoid the intense air raid (Tokyo was of course the major target). After the WW II, DAI-NI SEIKOSHA Suwa Factory merged with a local manufacturer and changed its name to Suwa SEIKOSHA Later Suwa SEIKOSHA again changed its name to SEIKO Epson.
Enough of history class here. The bottom line is that the Shizukuishi Watch Studio which makes mechanical Grand Seiko, and SEIKO Epson Shiojiri factory which makes Spring Drive (for Grand Seiko and others) and Quartz (for Grand Seiko and many others) are NOT in the same corporate family, in terms of the ownership. Surely, the founder's family may own part of both companies, but their stocks are both publicly traded. In pure business term, SEIKO Epson is one of the suppliers of SEIKO Watch on the contract basis.
Going forward in this article, when I say "SEIKO", that should mean both companies/ manufactories for the convenience of the readers - in fact the watch division of SEIKO Epson is treated that way by SEIKO Watch Corporation as well.
2. Credor Minute Repeater
Sorry to have kept you waiting. Here is the report of the product:
(1) Is the Minute Repeater part of the watch operated electronically (with the power generated by the unwinding of the main spring)?
No. The MR part is TOTALLY mechanical. But the MR part and the watch (Spring Drive) part share the same twin barrel as the power source.
This plate is meant for the owner to ask for engraving something.
(2) The MR function is triggered by a push button, not the lever to be pushed up which we usually expect. Is the MR triggered electronically?
No. The push switch is like the push button of the chronograph. It makes the power released by the unwinding spring go to the MR mechanism as well. There is a safety feature which locks the crown and the push button while the MR mechanism is working (and the all-reset push button as well). See figure below. Please see and hear the first video. Note that this is the decimal repeater - it gongs each hour and 10 minutes and a minute. 10 minutes counting is more familiar with Japanese culture.
Without MR, the twin barrel has 72 hours of power reserve. Roughly speaking, one MR function eats 2-3 hours of power reserve. About water resistance - the movement is tightly sealed and protected while the gong is placed outside the seal.
The pusher besides the MR button is "(emergency) all reset" button in case the MR function stops due to the lack of main spring winding while all others are still totally locked by the safety feature.
Safety mechanism that locks crown and the push button while MR is in action
Video #1 - just listen.
URL=http://youtu.be/h6-s4Y5petg?hd=1
(3) The Concept of this Credor MR
There are many brands that make minute repeater and SEIKO did not want to make the similar one, but something different. They chose MR Japanese way by using the materials of hundreds of years of tradition and secret recipe - the wind bell, particularly the one seen here. The wind bell has been one of the most typical and common scenes of summer in Japan - its pure, clean and transparent sound gives cool feeling from the ears. Some use iron/ steel like this one, some use glass, and some use other materials - each region has one with its tradition for hundreds of years. To the ears of SEIKO Team, this particularly in the pic was especially good.
Sadly, nowadays, the most household have A/C and keep the window closed, thus less wind bell are seen or heard....
(4) The Sound
The sound is from the wind bell with hundreds of years of history at Himeji area (Himeji is the place my family cemetery has been for the past several hundreds of years and it is in the western part of Japan - a bit west of Osaka and Kobe.) The secret of the clean, transparent sound of that wind bell is its iron made with secret recipe. Acoustically speaking, in general, higher frequency dies faster than the lower frequency because the higher freq. get killed by the air - simple physics. But with this special iron/ steel, the high frequency somehow survives longer (than the normal iron, I take it). SEIKO did confirm by measuring it, of course. These are the hammers made with the special iron/steel. And there is a ring of the same iron/steel inside the case between the case and the movement with just right width of the air chamber to fine tune and vibrate the sound.
Please see video #2 and hear the sound again while seeing the hammers move.
Mr. Motegi - the designer and the architect of this movement.
Video #2 - listen and see the hammer
URL=http://youtu.be/PIHB9gd6EYA?hd=1
(5) Slow Governor
Slow Governor is one of the necessary mechanism for minute repeaters to maintain the rhythm of the gong. SEIKO here came up with another unique solution by using "viscosity of the air". Traditional governor gives relatively loud background noise and it is getting less noisy in the newer repeaters. This new governor mechanism does not touch anywhere mechanically and there is no background mechanical noise. See the photo below. On the left hand side is the rice, and see the two springs in the main part of the governor on the right hand side. This governor rotates at high speed when MR mechanism is engaged. When it rotates fast, the governor expands its "wing" and in the air-tight sealed compartment this part is placed in, "viscosity of the air" or air resistance increases and the rotation speed slows down (just a little bit). When it slows down, the "wing" retracts (just a little bit) and the "viscosity of the air" or air resistance decreases and it speeds up again..... and it maintains the speed of rotation.
Please see the video #3 paying particular attention to the fast rotation of the governor from the front glass (maybe too fast to actually see it for most of us, though). Also please see the slow rotation of the barrel on which Shiojiri's City Flower - Bell Flower (what a correct name it is!) is engraved - as explained above, MR and Spring Drive share the same spring/ barrel as the power source.
A Rice and Governor parts
Governor module
The Governor from the front glass.
Bell Flower - City Flower of Shiojiri
Bell Flower on the Barrel
Video #3 - TRY to see the governor rotate and the Bell Blower rotate as well.
URL=http://youtu.be/5LIo9WRLGJM?hd=1
(6) Finish
The finish is also superb, especially the edges of the various bridges. They use many types of files and Gentian (a shrub). Mr. Shiohara - see below; highly decorated watchmaker at Shiojiri - has become very friendly with Mr. Philippe Dufour over the years of correspondences (Mr. Shiohara had been a big fan of Mr. Dufour), who suggested Gentian for polishing (he uses that method, too).
(7) Other shots
3. New Grand Seiko High Beat
I also had an opportunity to see the newest addition to Grand Seiko. Although there has or will be no official press release, this is the newest Hi Beat - SBGH013. Will be available sometime this week by the end of April. Very cool, retro looking, reminds me of SBGW003 LE. This is not LE and this is not manual winding.... I am waiting for the day when SEIKO releases the manual winding Hi Beat, but in the meanwhile, this may be good... this one is growing on me more and more...
4. Appendix
After the private viewing of this marvelous MR, we went to dinner and Mr. Hara of SEIKO Watch PR team showed me his watch of the day. Wow! The one I reported last time - Mr. Sakurada's 68xx movement and this is 120th anniversary LE (10 yrs ago). See the logo "U.T.D. (Ultra Thin Dressy)"? THAT is the signature of the legendary 68xx calibar models.....
===========================================================================================
That's it. Hope you understand a bit about the little known fact about the relationship of Shizukuishi and Shiojiri. I also asked the very question you all might have - why don't you make "all mechanical" MR? The technology and the skill of the Shizukuishi mechanical watch studio + the design and structuring the complication of Shiojiri must yield a fantastic "all mechanical Grand Seiko MR" in the future.... The answer is not conclusive as of today. Those two manufactures are now kinda "rival" under separate umbrella, but one day these two will hopefully work together.
Shiojiri Manufactory has Mr. Shiohara who mainly tuned the sound of this model and Mr. Nakata who is the master watchmaker at Shiojiri - they have both been chosen as “Contemporary Master Craftsmen” of Japan and Mr. Shiohara also has been awarded “Yellow Ribbon Medal” from the government, just like Mr. Sakurada (master watchmaker at Shizukuishi) and Mr. Terui (Master Engraver at Shizukuishi). The potential of SEIKO is enormous, I dare say, with these talents.
Mr. Shiohara - "Contemporary Master Craftsman" of Japan, and "Yellow Ribbon Medal" recipient.
Mr. Nakata - "Contemporary Master Craftsman" of Japan
Thanks again, SEIKO PR Team - Mr. Matsumoto, GM, and Mr. Hara.
Thank you for reading through.
- Ken
This message has been edited by MTF on 2011-05-01 07:26:04 This message has been edited by KIH on 2011-05-02 04:59:17
The signage of SEIKO Holdings and SEIKO Watch Co. in the lobby.
I had a pleasure to be invited (well, truth be told, I persistently asked for it...) to SEIKO head office the other evening and could finally see, touch, handle and hear the Novelty Credor Minute Repeater which debuted at the Basel last month. This piece went to Basel, came back and was displayed at Wako (high-end department store at the Ginza 4-chome crossing, owned by SEIKO) for two weeks and was on its way back to Shiojiri Manufacture for further refinement/ tuning. So this exact specimen is the one some of you actually saw, touched, or heard in Basel.
1. Where is this made by who?
I think I have to explain a little bit the story about the two major manufactories of SEIKO here. There is one in Tohoku Region (where the major disaster hit recently) called Morioka Seiko Instruments Inc. in which there is SEIKO Shizukuishi Watch Studio. I reported the factory visit in February home.watchprosite.com. There is another major factory in Nagano prefecture, near Suwa City, called SEIKO Epson Shiojiri factory. That's right, this one belongs to SEIKO Epson Corporation, which is a separate public company listed on Tokyo Stock Exchange, a different entity from SEIKO Watch or SEIKO Holdings or SEIKO Insruments Inc. which owns Morioka Seiko and Shizukuishi Watch Studio. There is no cross holding of the stocks between SEIKO Holdings and SEIKO Epson - again, both are listed public companies. SEIKO Epson is far more famous for its printer products, as you may know. Watch division of SEIKO Epson is really the fraction of its total revenue.
This somewhat strange organization is due to its history that involves some influence of the WW II. As I explained the history of SEIKO in the Shizukuishi visit report, there was SEIKOSHA which was making clocks and very early part of watches and then DAI-NI (The Second) SEIKOSHA was later set-up which started making only wrist watches. They were, of course, sister companies owned by the same parent entity. And there was the War and DAI-NI SEIKOSHA moved its major part of production facilities to Suwa, Nagano to avoid the intense air raid (Tokyo was of course the major target). After the WW II, DAI-NI SEIKOSHA Suwa Factory merged with a local manufacturer and changed its name to Suwa SEIKOSHA Later Suwa SEIKOSHA again changed its name to SEIKO Epson.
Enough of history class here. The bottom line is that the Shizukuishi Watch Studio which makes mechanical Grand Seiko, and SEIKO Epson Shiojiri factory which makes Spring Drive (for Grand Seiko and others) and Quartz (for Grand Seiko and many others) are NOT in the same corporate family, in terms of the ownership. Surely, the founder's family may own part of both companies, but their stocks are both publicly traded. In pure business term, SEIKO Epson is one of the suppliers of SEIKO Watch on the contract basis.
Going forward in this article, when I say "SEIKO", that should mean both companies/ manufactories for the convenience of the readers - in fact the watch division of SEIKO Epson is treated that way by SEIKO Watch Corporation as well.
2. Credor Minute Repeater
Sorry to have kept you waiting. Here is the report of the product:
(1) Is the Minute Repeater part of the watch operated electronically (with the power generated by the unwinding of the main spring)?
No. The MR part is TOTALLY mechanical. But the MR part and the watch (Spring Drive) part share the same twin barrel as the power source.
This plate is meant for the owner to ask for engraving something.
(2) The MR function is triggered by a push button, not the lever to be pushed up which we usually expect. Is the MR triggered electronically?
No. The push switch is like the push button of the chronograph. It makes the power released by the unwinding spring go to the MR mechanism as well. There is a safety feature which locks the crown and the push button while the MR mechanism is working (and the all-reset push button as well). See figure below. Please see and hear the first video. Note that this is the decimal repeater - it gongs each hour and 10 minutes and a minute. 10 minutes counting is more familiar with Japanese culture.
Without MR, the twin barrel has 72 hours of power reserve. Roughly speaking, one MR function eats 2-3 hours of power reserve. About water resistance - the movement is tightly sealed and protected while the gong is placed outside the seal.
The pusher besides the MR button is "(emergency) all reset" button in case the MR function stops due to the lack of main spring winding while all others are still totally locked by the safety feature.
Safety mechanism that locks crown and the push button while MR is in action
Video #1 - just listen.
URL=http://youtu.be/h6-s4Y5petg?hd=1
(3) The Concept of this Credor MR
There are many brands that make minute repeater and SEIKO did not want to make the similar one, but something different. They chose MR Japanese way by using the materials of hundreds of years of tradition and secret recipe - the wind bell, particularly the one seen here. The wind bell has been one of the most typical and common scenes of summer in Japan - its pure, clean and transparent sound gives cool feeling from the ears. Some use iron/ steel like this one, some use glass, and some use other materials - each region has one with its tradition for hundreds of years. To the ears of SEIKO Team, this particularly in the pic was especially good.
Sadly, nowadays, the most household have A/C and keep the window closed, thus less wind bell are seen or heard....
(4) The Sound
The sound is from the wind bell with hundreds of years of history at Himeji area (Himeji is the place my family cemetery has been for the past several hundreds of years and it is in the western part of Japan - a bit west of Osaka and Kobe.) The secret of the clean, transparent sound of that wind bell is its iron made with secret recipe. Acoustically speaking, in general, higher frequency dies faster than the lower frequency because the higher freq. get killed by the air - simple physics. But with this special iron/ steel, the high frequency somehow survives longer (than the normal iron, I take it). SEIKO did confirm by measuring it, of course. These are the hammers made with the special iron/steel. And there is a ring of the same iron/steel inside the case between the case and the movement with just right width of the air chamber to fine tune and vibrate the sound.
Please see video #2 and hear the sound again while seeing the hammers move.
Mr. Motegi - the designer and the architect of this movement.
Video #2 - listen and see the hammer
URL=http://youtu.be/PIHB9gd6EYA?hd=1
(5) Slow Governor
Slow Governor is one of the necessary mechanism for minute repeaters to maintain the rhythm of the gong. SEIKO here came up with another unique solution by using "viscosity of the air". Traditional governor gives relatively loud background noise and it is getting less noisy in the newer repeaters. This new governor mechanism does not touch anywhere mechanically and there is no background mechanical noise. See the photo below. On the left hand side is the rice, and see the two springs in the main part of the governor on the right hand side. This governor rotates at high speed when MR mechanism is engaged. When it rotates fast, the governor expands its "wing" and in the air-tight sealed compartment this part is placed in, "viscosity of the air" or air resistance increases and the rotation speed slows down (just a little bit). When it slows down, the "wing" retracts (just a little bit) and the "viscosity of the air" or air resistance decreases and it speeds up again..... and it maintains the speed of rotation.
Please see the video #3 paying particular attention to the fast rotation of the governor from the front glass (maybe too fast to actually see it for most of us, though). Also please see the slow rotation of the barrel on which Shiojiri's City Flower - Bell Flower (what a correct name it is!) is engraved - as explained above, MR and Spring Drive share the same spring/ barrel as the power source.
A Rice and Governor parts
Governor module
The Governor from the front glass.
Bell Flower - City Flower of Shiojiri
Bell Flower on the Barrel
Video #3 - TRY to see the governor rotate and the Bell Blower rotate as well.
URL=http://youtu.be/5LIo9WRLGJM?hd=1
(6) Finish
The finish is also superb, especially the edges of the various bridges. They use many types of files and Gentian (a shrub). Mr. Shiohara - see below; highly decorated watchmaker at Shiojiri - has become very friendly with Mr. Philippe Dufour over the years of correspondences (Mr. Shiohara had been a big fan of Mr. Dufour), who suggested Gentian for polishing (he uses that method, too).
(7) Other shots
3. New Grand Seiko High Beat
I also had an opportunity to see the newest addition to Grand Seiko. Although there has or will be no official press release, this is the newest Hi Beat - SBGH013. Will be available sometime this week by the end of April. Very cool, retro looking, reminds me of SBGW003 LE. This is not LE and this is not manual winding.... I am waiting for the day when SEIKO releases the manual winding Hi Beat, but in the meanwhile, this may be good... this one is growing on me more and more...
4. Appendix
After the private viewing of this marvelous MR, we went to dinner and Mr. Hara of SEIKO Watch PR team showed me his watch of the day. Wow! The one I reported last time - Mr. Sakurada's 68xx movement and this is 120th anniversary LE (10 yrs ago). See the logo "U.T.D. (Ultra Thin Dressy)"? THAT is the signature of the legendary 68xx calibar models.....
===========================================================================================
That's it. Hope you understand a bit about the little known fact about the relationship of Shizukuishi and Shiojiri. I also asked the very question you all might have - why don't you make "all mechanical" MR? The technology and the skill of the Shizukuishi mechanical watch studio + the design and structuring the complication of Shiojiri must yield a fantastic "all mechanical Grand Seiko MR" in the future.... The answer is not conclusive as of today. Those two manufactures are now kinda "rival" under separate umbrella, but one day these two will hopefully work together.
Shiojiri Manufactory has Mr. Shiohara who mainly tuned the sound of this model and Mr. Nakata who is the master watchmaker at Shiojiri - they have both been chosen as “Contemporary Master Craftsmen” of Japan and Mr. Shiohara also has been awarded “Yellow Ribbon Medal” from the government, just like Mr. Sakurada (master watchmaker at Shizukuishi) and Mr. Terui (Master Engraver at Shizukuishi). The potential of SEIKO is enormous, I dare say, with these talents.
Mr. Shiohara - "Contemporary Master Craftsman" of Japan, and "Yellow Ribbon Medal" recipient.
Mr. Nakata - "Contemporary Master Craftsman" of Japan
Thanks again, SEIKO PR Team - Mr. Matsumoto, GM, and Mr. Hara.
Thank you for reading through.
- Ken
This message has been edited by MTF on 2011-05-01 07:26:04 This message has been edited by KIH on 2011-05-02 04:59:17
Amazing Report !
Thanks for taking the time and effort to compile this. The Credor min rep is a huge fav of mine, if only I could afford it !! The governor module takes the cake for me.
Look forward to a more in depth report of the SBGH013, if any is in plan. Is this also using the vunerable 9S85 caliber ?
Time to make a trip to the lottery counter during lunch 
Yes, SBGH013 has the same calibar as other Hi-Beat.
I have not planned to review it, but I will think about that 
Thank you!
Ken
Thank you!
Ken
Excellent report!
What a piece of work that MR is! And packed with 112 jewels?! Incredible...
Domo, Ken-san!
Domo, Ken-san!
Thank you thank you thank you
Ken,
Very nice. We appreciate you spending this time to track down the details and report so enthusiastically.
Did anyone put the watch on or wear it?
Or is it just for showing, not for using?
Cheers
Cazalea
Very nice. We appreciate you spending this time to track down the details and report so enthusiastically.
Did anyone put the watch on or wear it?
Or is it just for showing, not for using?
Cheers
Cazalea
Well, I was too shy :-)
This seemed to be the "FINAL" prototype and unlikely to be the first one to be sold to the customer. But, then, again, it was treated so delicately that I didn't even think of wearing it on my wrist! The strap, by the way, had RG deployant buckle.
Ken
Ken
Ken, wonderful post!
What a fascinating treat for the eyes and ears.
Best,
CaliforniaJed
Best,
CaliforniaJed
HQ post.
Stunning timepiece, a work of art. Love it in every way, would like to see it with a lever instead of that pusher, but just to compare and choose.
Thanks for the fantastic report, I 've enjoyed it a lot.
Vte
The push button is the choice of design by them
.. to minimize the risk of breaking down the MR mechanism, which could happen too often.
Ken
Ken
Hi-Beat Hand Wind Grand Seiko
Yes please: put me down for one of those if it should appear.
That would be the end of my collecting career for hand wind watches.
Thanks for the report, Ken.
Regards,
MTF
GREAT reporting..
great photos and videos. Love the background info as well!
This is one amazing piece of horology and I like the wind chime gong...
Thank you so much for a review of a piece that I will probably never see in the metal. This is a close 2nd.
the MR sounds just perfect and looks superb
it is obviously a highly complicated timepiece, but the great man has finished it to look so simple. the 2 opposites work perfectly together. just beautiful.
thanks Ken, its always good to hear about Seiko's high end pieces.
Graham
My pleasure. Sorrry.
.. that I couldn't bring any British watch wrist photo this week. I have to look for more, but not much hope in that department ... :-(
Ken
Ken
Superb post Ken.
This Credor MR was without any doubt one of my fav watches of the Basel fair. A logical step after the Credor Sonnerie.
Sadly... I didn't understand the price gap with the Sonnerie.
Thanks a lot for this superb post Ken.
Fx
Sadly... I didn't understand the price gap with the Sonnerie.
Thanks a lot for this superb post Ken.
Fx
Why change history...?
It's nice but why change from a quarter repeater to a decimal repeater for no reason other than to just change it..? Not that I could afford it but for this reason alone even if I could afford one I wouldn't...maybe if PP or JLC do one I might take it seriously but no..!!
The High Beat I do like...in fact there are a few Grande Seiko's I like but you can't get them in the UK..:o(
Yours,
Andy.
Sorry, like I said, they wanted to make it Japanese way
... surely they can make quarter repeater, but we, Japanese, count numbers with the unit of 10. We are really not familiar with the concept of quarter. We don't have 25 yen coin. Just 1, 5, 10, 50, 100, and 500 yen coins. Also, something interesting to note is that we don't use 20 in the money. We have 1000, 5000, 10,000 yen bills. Truth be told - there is 2000 yen bill introduced 10 or 15 years ago - there was a big fuss in the banking and vending machine industry to accommodate such "odd" amount bill. But then, soon after, nobody uses 2000 yen bills.
Anyway, if you could afford, you can surely order quarter repeater and there you will have it.
Ken
Anyway, if you could afford, you can surely order quarter repeater and there you will have it.
Ken
That's very interesting....
thank you for the extra info. Cultural differences are fascinating and reminds me of an advert for HSBC in England about how they change their banking needs to fit in with the culture.
Thanks again for the info and the great report on the repeater with fabulous photo's,
Yours,
Andy.
A supremely dedicated post to this novelty
Well done Ken!
Thanks for bringing this to us!
Enjoyed it thoroughly!
Stephen
Lots of information to digest...
Lots of information to digest, but to me, it seems (as I'm trying to simplify everything) that the way this Minute Repeater strikes is really based on a Grand Sonnerie principle. Grand Sonneries use power to make the striking sounds on the watch. This minute repeater also requires energy for the strike as opposed to the energy obtained from the activation of the slide.
A very interesting minute repeater.
Thanks for the very complete report Ken!
A very interesting minute repeater.
Thanks for the very complete report Ken!
You are astute, Patrick!
Exactly. They wanted to minimize the risk of break-down by just a little mishandling of the lever, but I think this push button (like chronograph) activation idea is clever, too.
Thank you!
Ken
Thank you!
Ken
Thanks, Ken.
What a great report. I can hear the enthusiasm in your report! Great shots!
Aloha,
Bob
Aloha,
Bob
Very Comprehensive report on The Seiko Credor Minute repeater
Not a short read but give a great background.
Thanks
Bill
Thanks
Bill