Saturninus
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Holy Trinity of Independents?
This might be one of those topics that everyone hates, but in case there is some appetite for stimulating, constructive debate, I though I'd pose the question:
Who are the Holy Trinity of Independent Watchmakers?
I imagine that Dufour and Voutilainen have 2 of the 3 spots locked up? I suspect the 3rd spot might be hotly contested...
Roger Smith? Laurent Ferrier? FP Journe
I think it is understood that the paradigm that drives a consensus on a "Holy Trinity" of mass-market watch brands is not entirely applicable when it comes to Independent watchmakers. One could even say it is anti-thetical to what people appreciate most about independent watchmakers. Nevertheless, for whatever reason, Dufour has reached some sort of pinnacle in his trade. Voutilainen cannot be far behind. I would say that this is even more remarkable given that these watchmakers do not have the machinery of marketing at their disposal to seduce the crowds. And yet we gather at their feet!!!
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Holy Trinity of Independents?
This might be one of those topics that everyone hates, but in case there is some appetite for stimulating, constructive debate, I though I'd pose the question: Who are the Holy Trinity of Independent Watchmakers? I imagine that Dufour and Voutilainen have...
By definition an Independent Watchmaker must still be active
Saturnius, By definition, an Independent Watchmaker must still be active. If the watchmaker has retired, died or stopped production, he/she is no longer independent from the "tied" or "tenured" positions with the watch industry. We won't go into long argu...
Ohh this is a great way to start a fight on this forum. 😀
How do we define a “true” independent - eg does Greubel & Forsey count? What is the Criteria for deliberation? Is it finishing (Dufour is king), is It ability to hand-craft everything (Daniels/Smith) or ingenuity (any number of dudes, from Voutilainen/Ger...
No fight. We've been through this before
bounce Remember we started an AHCI forum when nobody would even give them the time of day (pun intended). They were small businesses and had no marketing budget. The PuristS website (now absorbed into PuristSPro that owns watchprosite) wanted to give them...
Oh I hope it doesn't come down to fisticuffs!
I have the sense that the overwhelming majority of the members of this forum are well-practiced in the art of articulating an opinion without unnecessarily stepping on too many toes. I enjoying hearing about what veteran collectors appreciate most about o...
My two cents
Among the high handcraft, CNC-free independents I would say: Dufour, Haldimann, Smith. Probably closest to still executing the 30+ skills outlined by George Daniels. Among the higher volume independents I would say: Kari V, FPJ, Ferrier
Part of interview of RWS by HODINKEE
HODINKEE: You produce watches without the use of repetitive or automatic tools, is that correct? RWS: We use CNC, which I guess is automatic. HODINKEE: So it’s basically CNC plus hand operated machines and tools. RWS: Yes. For the production volume. KV is...
FPJ
Curious to learn more about your assertion that FPJ is lying about their production volumes. Must be a concerted effort because the sub-1000 annual production I’ve heard from retailers, boutiques and collectors.
I got the information directly for employees (watchmaker and other) and more then once!
They are maybe less format to the official communication line...
Euroasianstar do you want a little secret about a resonance?
You may have difficulty to trust me if you want I can prove the communication is on always transparent at FPJ!
Development made in-house and ...
For what I know the development is made in-house, but it’s some suppliers who produce they components. And the finishing and assembly is also make in-house!
Interesting....
So with Dufour by and large retiring, this leaves Haldimann as one of the very last CnC free watchmakers? Aside from the purchased sapphire crystals and hair springs of course
Interesting - those two cents are exactly the kinds of
...bits and pieces of a greater wealth of knowledge that I am only starting to tap into. I should be looking for a biography of George Daniels - perhaps the greatest watchmaker since Breguet himself?
For me there isnt a Holy Trinity .
I find them almost all attractive in there own way . Each indie watch is somehow a reflection from the watchmaker or creator it self and there by appealing to me . I dont care if they uses a CNC machine or do it the old fashion way .
+1
Each Indie is a holy master artist. Even better when they make their own movements (not an overpriced mods/outsourcing of big production brands)
There is a certain romanticism of expecting something
Bespoke to be difficult to make and labourered over. I was I finally attracted to RWS watching him make his cases with the three bands of gold and the effort going into it...now a CNC machine churns them out and a little mysiticm goes. Yes CNC are importa...
From our visit to some Swiss "independents"
WatchOnTheWrist From our trip last Summer to some Swiss "independents", we know that CNC is better than handmade for fine tolerances. Even the watchmakers say so. The polishing is hand made for romanticism and sometimes better in tight spaces. Like you, I...
I Totally agree with you my friend 😁.
We have seen it all last year . Like you said , the end result is whats importent
...end result
So the end result is accuracy, pretty finish or both? If accuracy we should all stick to quartz and our mobile phones. If pretty finish, then I prefer the idiosyncrasies and imperfections that comes with truly handcrafted watches
Agreed!!
There are just too many wonderful indie brands and watchmakers that make beautiful watches, despite some not necessarily making their watches with the highest finishing. Like jean baptiste viot makes some beautiful watches and the finishing is, I think, n...
I respect but I don’t like the design,...
I respect the work of viot but is watch is base on an peseux 260 like KV observatoire. I haven’t see the brand atelier de chronométrie or Raul pages who like viot take an exciting movement and reshaped it and hand finish it. It’s an interesting trend in i...
There is no real holy trinity for independents
but Philip Dufour, Kari Voutilainen and Roger Smith are pretty high up any list of independents. These gentlemen have mastered the art of exquisite finishing and their watches are arguably more hand made than most. A couple of years ago, I posted a thread...
Thank you! :-)
I am no expert but I think the resale value of Dufour and Smith in particular is itself testament to the quality of their watches. One would add Daniels to this list too I guess.
Oh that u can't get a new simplicity and RWs
Makes 10-12 p.a with 4 year waiting list
true!
But I was naming the best three independent watchmakers, not necessarily because they are still producing watches or that there is a long waiting list for their watches, just the fact that they are in my opinion the top 3 in terms of finishing at least. T...
Too subjective for any consensus. Dufour and Voutilainen would be my first two...
After that I am uncertain.
You are right but there are a lot more great indie watchmakers that are not
mentioned , thats why i think there isnt a holy trinity . Its all about what a collector likes and how he feels about a watch imho
To me, the beauty of independent watchmaking is bringing diversity and "free-will" into the becoming-boring industry.
So, why use a commercial term to describe them? By definition "holy trinity" doesn't fit a totally diverse and vivid world of indies. Btw, personally I don't even agree with "holy trinity", to start with not a place for Lange?
What is the best cigar? wine?....
No one can answer that because it is subjective to personal tastes and preferences. So many amazing watchmakers bring their own personal flavor to Independent watch making such as Ludovic Ballouard, Vianney Halter, Christian Klings, Andreas Strehler, Eva ...
Well said Salman...
There are some extremely talented independents and it is subjective. Personally, I could live happily ever after with a Kari Voutilainen, Vianney Halter and a Gronefeld. Seems appropriate to also acknowledge McGonigle on this St. Patty's day!
As the OP, I must say that I agree with the sentiment expressed here...
...that there is no Holy Trinity of independent watchmakers, and if there ever were a Holy Trinity in this category, it would probably consist of something other than true independent watchmakers. The genre of independent watchmakers is sustained by the i...