Independents

This might be one of those topics that everyone hates, but in case there is some appetite for stimulating, constructive debate, I though I'd pose the question: Who are the Holy Trinity of Independent Watchmakers? I imagine that Dufour and Voutilainen have... 

Saturnius, By definition, an Independent Watchmaker must still be active. If the watchmaker has retired, died or stopped production, he/she is no longer independent from the "tied" or "tenured" positions with the watch industry. We won't go into long argu... 

How do we define a “true” independent - eg does Greubel & Forsey count? What is the Criteria for deliberation? Is it finishing (Dufour is king), is It ability to hand-craft everything (Daniels/Smith) or ingenuity (any number of dudes, from Voutilainen/Ger... 

bounce Remember we started an AHCI forum when nobody would even give them the time of day (pun intended). They were small businesses and had no marketing budget. The PuristS website (now absorbed into PuristSPro that owns watchprosite) wanted to give them... 

Cheers

I have the sense that the overwhelming majority of the members of this forum are well-practiced in the art of articulating an opinion without unnecessarily stepping on too many toes. I enjoying hearing about what veteran collectors appreciate most about o... 

Among the high handcraft, CNC-free independents I would say: Dufour, Haldimann, Smith. Probably closest to still executing the 30+ skills outlined by George Daniels. Among the higher volume independents I would say: Kari V, FPJ, Ferrier

Higher volume being KV at 40, FPJ at over 1000 and LF similar? ...  

HODINKEE: You produce watches without the use of repetitive or automatic tools, is that correct? RWS: We use CNC, which I guess is automatic. HODINKEE: So it’s basically CNC plus hand operated machines and tools. RWS: Yes. For the production volume. KV is... 

Curious to learn more about your assertion that FPJ is lying about their production volumes. Must be a concerted effort because the sub-1000 annual production I’ve heard from retailers, boutiques and collectors.

They are maybe less format to the official communication line...

You may have difficulty to trust me if you want I can prove the communication is on always transparent at FPJ!

What is made externally? Cheers

For what I know the development is made in-house, but it’s some suppliers who produce they components. And the finishing and assembly is also make in-house!

So with Dufour by and large retiring, this leaves Haldimann as one of the very last CnC free watchmakers? Aside from the purchased sapphire crystals and hair springs of course

...bits and pieces of a greater wealth of knowledge that I am only starting to tap into. I should be looking for a biography of George Daniels - perhaps the greatest watchmaker since Breguet himself?

I find them almost all attractive in there own way . Each indie watch is somehow a reflection from the watchmaker or creator it self and there by appealing to me . I dont care if they uses a CNC machine or do it the old fashion way .

Best wishes Alkiro

Each Indie is a holy master artist. Even better when they make their own movements (not an overpriced mods/outsourcing of big production brands)

Bespoke to be difficult to make and labourered over. I was I finally attracted to RWS watching him make his cases with the three bands of gold and the effort going into it...now a CNC machine churns them out and a little mysiticm goes. Yes CNC are importa... 

WatchOnTheWrist From our trip last Summer to some Swiss "independents", we know that CNC is better than handmade for fine tolerances. Even the watchmakers say so. The polishing is hand made for romanticism and sometimes better in tight spaces. Like you, I... 

We have seen it all last year . Like you said , the end result is whats importent

So the end result is accuracy, pretty finish or both? If accuracy we should all stick to quartz and our mobile phones. If pretty finish, then I prefer the idiosyncrasies and imperfections that comes with truly handcrafted watches

There are just too many wonderful indie brands and watchmakers that make beautiful watches, despite some not necessarily making their watches with the highest finishing. Like jean baptiste viot makes some beautiful watches and the finishing is, I think, n... 

I respect the work of viot but is watch is base on an peseux 260 like KV observatoire. I haven’t see the brand atelier de chronométrie or Raul pages who like viot take an exciting movement and reshaped it and hand finish it. It’s an interesting trend in i... 

but Philip Dufour, Kari Voutilainen and Roger Smith are pretty high up any list of independents. These gentlemen have mastered the art of exquisite finishing and their watches are arguably more hand made than most. A couple of years ago, I posted a thread... 

I am no expert but I think the resale value of Dufour and Smith in particular is itself testament to the quality of their watches. One would add Daniels to this list too I guess.

Makes 10-12 p.a with 4 year waiting list

But I was naming the best three independent watchmakers, not necessarily because they are still producing watches or that there is a long waiting list for their watches, just the fact that they are in my opinion the top 3 in terms of finishing at least. T... 

After that I am uncertain.

mentioned , thats why i think there isnt a holy trinity . Its all about what a collector likes and how he feels about a watch imho

we should celebrate all independent watchmaking.

So, why use a commercial term to describe them? By definition "holy trinity" doesn't fit a totally diverse and vivid world of indies. Btw, personally I don't even agree with "holy trinity", to start with not a place for Lange?

No one can answer that because it is subjective to personal tastes and preferences. So many amazing watchmakers bring their own personal flavor to Independent watch making such as Ludovic Ballouard, Vianney Halter, Christian Klings, Andreas Strehler, Eva ... 

There are some extremely talented independents and it is subjective. Personally, I could live happily ever after with a Kari Voutilainen, Vianney Halter and a Gronefeld. Seems appropriate to also acknowledge McGonigle on this St. Patty's day!

but I would kill for a Viot, and a Tuscar from McGonigle😍

...that there is no Holy Trinity of independent watchmakers, and if there ever were a Holy Trinity in this category, it would probably consist of something other than true independent watchmakers. The genre of independent watchmakers is sustained by the i...