Baron - Mr Red
14613
Rolex Submariner 5508
I am posting this thread as I know, soon, Nicolas will have completed his 5508 by getting the correct insert. After many years.....indeed. In fact, it is in any case time to take another look at this non crown guard Submariner - a watch that so often gets overlooked in comparison to the Big Crowns and subsequent crown guard versions. I am in a lucky position in having found what I consider to be as nice a 5508 as I am inclined to find. Well, lets put it this way, next to Nicolas's 5508, I think we both feel indifferent as to which we would own.....both having their clear plus points.
First things first, lets have a look at the watch in action....what is it that provides the attraction of this watch?
Well, firstly lets start with the era of production.....1957-1961. Although the watch continued to appear for sale for many years after 1961, the production run was in fact quite short. Over this production run, the 5508 was produced using the Caliber 1530 and as can be seen from the picture above, with a glossy dial. Collectors have come to truly appreciate the attraction of the 1950s and 1960s glossy dials. They exude a richness which is hard to describe. More often than not, a gloss dial will have a flaw. Maybe it will be scratches around the centre where the hands revolve, or plausibly the lume will be imperfect. Sometimes, the mirror-like effect of the gloss has lost its lustre. There can many factors that affect the dial, for sure. In my view, Nicolas's 5508 has the most mirror-like finish of any 5508 I have seen. Mine is close to his, but not quite as brilliant. To my mind, having this gloss finish on a watch that is over 50 years old is one of its biggest positives. It really differentiates it....it has that overt vintage look but with a brilliant gloss dial finish......very sexy.
Now onto another factor that makes the watch interesting. 1957-1961....its an era that is beset with uncertainty for Rolex insofar as the period is one where the composition of the lume came under intense scrutiny. Radium was used, but after international law shifted, it became necessary to use another radioactive material. For a very brief period, and only on a very small batch of watches, Strontium was used. This was quickly changed. Tritium was brought into use. Just how quickly and how comprehensively this switch to tritium occurred is ALWAYS hotly debated amongst Rolex collectors. The use of special signifiers on the dial have been argued to point towards evidence of a switch having been made. For example, some argue that the appearance of an "underline" beneath the word "Submariner" was indicative of the fact that Rolex had changed the dial from one with Radium to the safer Tritium. Similarly, the "exclamation dot" right below the "6" is similarly argued to represent this switch. The honest answer is that nobody knows for certain. Some watches have underlines. Some have exclamation points. Some have nothing. I will also say that it is entirely possible that a dial has an exclamation point (indicating a switch to Tritium) yet STILL has Radium on the lume.....Rolex could be lazy and just not have bothered to switch, it being far easier (and cheaper) just to stick a small dot under the 6! (Picture is not of my watch)
But in the way that is quite uniquely Rolex, the uncertainty and lack of clarity about the historical backdrop adds to the romance and mystery.
The 5508 is also distinctly smaller than other Submariners, both in depth and width. Its smaller size creates a feel more of charm than power. The 6200, 5510 and 6538 Big Crowns are overtly powerful watches. I am not saying that these Big Crowns lack poise, but the small crown variants like the 5508 definitely seem to exude more refinement. The case of the 5508 is most definitely another, then, of its attractions. I love the case on my 5508. It is so incredibly crisp for a watch that is so old.
And on this shot above one also sees another of the little things that make the watch so attractive....the + crown. So often, the crown carries the - sign. It is not such a big deal, really, just nice to see these quirks.
I appreciate that there are many who adore these small crown Submariners. Yet, over the years, they have just not received the clamour that has been aroused by the Big Crowns. In fact, if one compares them against the early gilt crownguards of 5512 and 5513, collectors have tended to much prefer the latter. I have a small theory on why this may be the case. It is a theory with a twofold answer.
1) Pre-crownguard, one compares the 5508 with the 6538 and 6200. Small crown versus Big. Against the competition, it is truly hard to see how the small crown can win. The 6538 has the James Bond theme going for it, whilst the 6200 is the very first Big Crown (and plausibly the first Submariner on the Rolex design block) with the 3-6-9 Explorer dial. In this context, the small crown will always be the Boxter competing against the 911.
2) When Rolex designed the crownguard, it unwittingly came developed a design feature that would make its watches iconic. Yep, those crownguards are a big part of the Rolex DNA that have made Rolex an icon. Would you rather own the very first Submariner with crownguards, the 5512, or the 5508? Well, both came with glossy dials, but one has that unique Rolex DNA, and with it the associated power and strength of a Submariner. If you boil it down, when someone buys a Submariner, are they looking for power and strength or are they looking for poise and charm? The 5508 has a sporty look, for sure, but power and strength are to be found more overtly in other Submariners.
In many ways, however, it is wrong to compare the 5508 with either the Big Crowns or the Crownguard Submariners. One is comparing apples with pears. The watches are not really comparable. Rather, one should look at the 5508 as a watch that offers quite unique features for a Rolex...it is that individuality and how that brings something different to the vintage table that should be appreciated with this watch. Its sporty yet has that ability to exude charm and poise. It could easily look stunning at a black tie event....could a 5512 really do that so well?
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Rolex Submariner 5508
I am posting this thread as I know, soon, Nicolas will have completed his 5508 by getting the correct insert. After many years.....indeed. In fact, it is in any case time to take another look at this non crown guard Submariner - a watch that so often gets...
Thank you Joe for a fantastic post.
I have also made my part today: I bought a (too expensive) vintage Rolex Submariner that I expect to get on Thursday. In fact I expect to get two Submariners on Thursday. You guys with your posts and nice photos drive me nuts! Best, Kari
Superb, really superb article, Joe.
It is a fact that the 5508 is not winning the comparison with the 5512 / 13, at least for the last years... And I never got why the Small Crowns are less appreciated than the 5512 / 13. Since my interest for your article. I totally agree with you that the...
5508 years of production......
.......my answer to your question is that I am not sure. Certainly, a number of reference books suggest 1961......however, i have seen so many cases with serial numbers that suggest 1962 and even 1963....... ....of course, it is plausible that actual prod...
I always double check the sn and the quartal and year.
And, of course, I don't count my efforts. :) Count Jaeger.
earliest 5508 seen ( at least by me .. )
have case number in the 361.000 range ( roughly 1st quarter of 1958 ) . latest AFAIK with case number under 900.000. seen also some " out of range " .. but questionable......
5512 gilt vrs 5508?
For me, I have lovely versions of both, but I would go 5512. But I am especially attached to my 5512!
Nicolas- 100% with you on ALL points
I cannot remember the last time I agreed with you more. E
Analogy is not fitting
Joe- first I enjoyed your post on the small crown 5508 very much. Not much is known about this reference. Your example is growing on me (indeed any 5508) as I much prefer the earlier small crowns namely the 6536-1 which have a much more 'gilt' dial and ha...
Yep...i am with Nicolas on this....
.....the Tudor BC is in a different game to the 5508/6536...... it is a different beats altogether. They fight in different weight categories!! I think we have been on boxing analogies before, eh? BCs.....Ali, Tyson, Foreman..... SCs.....Sugar Ray
Happy that you liked the +!!!
But I still feel that the small crowns are not in the same league as the BCs. OK, if the Boxter comparison is too harsh on the 5508, then maybe 911 vrs 928 is more apt. I know you have a deep love for the 6536 small crown...and the small crown generally. ...
Team effort
Lets try and come with a good analogy. Because your analogy is not good- for the following reasons. 1) The first Sub which you oftened have argued is the DNA of Rolex (the submariner being the core DNA of Rolex) was a small crown. 6204 2) The second sub w...
well...strictly speaking not true.....
....as my post on the subject argued that the 6200 was the first Submariner that Rolex designed ... but not the first that they released to the public. I continue to argue that the very first concept of Submariner was with the 6200.....it was just not rel...
You agree with me then ;)
Joe- lets say even that your right (which your not). Lets say it was designed first- the 6200. But not released. We are talking about DNA and perception. What counts is the public perception. And here its clear the 6204 was the first sub. So you agree wit...
Ah, if what counts is public perception, as you say....then....
......the public perception...the market perception.....is that the 6536/5508 are the Boxters and the 6200/6538/5510 BCs are the 911s..... ....we come full-circle and you end up arguing in favour of my original view. Harsh maybe...but fair.
we are never going to agree
I see thing differently and so do many others. I see your point though. Let me get my hands on a BC and then I am in a better (unbiased position) to argue. Radium preferred ofcourse ;)
OK...but...
.....if you subsequently evaluate the situation and come to the conclusion that I was originally correct, then I reserve the right to change my mind. LoL
I can tell you that a nice 7924 all correct, is more expensive.
And much rarer than a 6536 even /1. Here we are speaking about an all correct and in nice condition 7924, of course, because with a service or incorrect dial, it is less expensive. Best, Nicolas
oh no please don't introduce that ...
damned minefield here too .. LOL LOL LOL btw don't think that the excl. point shows the passage from radium to tritium .
Hello there!
Hi all, I am a usual VRFer (Marcello knows me, if he remembers...LOL) but have found myself coming here more and more. I was trying to find the right post to make my first answer and this great review of the 5508 might just be it. Indeed, I just acquired ...
Welcome here, Fabrice. Your 5508 dial is WOW!
Looking foward to reading more from you, Nicolas
Welcome. You really know how to make a great impression
You Rolex 5508 is perfection in every way. WE hope to hear and see more. Bill
Well, thanks a lot, gentlemen....
I will post more of my collection when I get the time but I just wanted to take this opportunity to thank you, Bill, for your classic study of the 5513 gilt dials watch. It was my first read when I was researching my first gilt Sub (the Bart Simpson from ...
I hope there was at least some good facts in the report
and not too much Rolex fiction. With Rolex you can never say never as we learn new things every day. A lot of passion in the forum with a lot of crazy collectors. I look forward to seeing and sharing more with you. Bill
Hey Fabrice....
....welcome here. What an entrance with that 5508! It looks absolutely perfect. It is great to post here and we look forward to seeing more of your scans and thoughts. As collectors, it is always interesting to hear others views and how/why they made deci...
Superb post and thread dear Joe! I enjoyed so much reading...
... Viewing pictures and learning more about the 5508! Thank you! Kind regards, Abel.
Agreed BUT
All small crowns are awesome. But some more than others. In that foodchain of awesomeness the 5508 does not sit right at the top. Those belong to references beginning with a 6 ;)
i think that is right......i would rather have a 6204 or 6205 than a 5508....
.....which is ironic, since i had a 6205 and now don't....and now have a 5508. I think my youth must have confused my logic.
Your logic is not that bad
After all you have 6200 which begins with a 6. Perhaps you gave the 6205 to buy the 6200 so that would be a good deal anyway. I like the 5508, don't get me wrong. I much prefer it than 'normal' 5513 for example. But I think in the small crown world it wou...
.......well......
no......the 6200 came to me by luck.....the seller wanted cash four a quick deal......i happened to be standing by a friend who knows more about vintage Rolex than nearly anyone I know.....having collected for 40yrs...he checked the 6200...pronounced it p...
Thats always a nice position to be in
To have money when others don't. I hope I find myself in that position one day. A nice way to buy a 6200. Not like today when buying will cause your nose to bleed. Or half a heart attack. Whats the famous saying? 'Patience is a virtue'. Best Edmond
I am not a fan of that saying..."Patience is a virtue"....
......so often its not ! My old boss once told me..."Shoot first, ask questions later". Of course, that philosophy also has its drawbacks and is based on having a fairly decent intuition.
In general it is
My mother often tells me: timing in life is everything. She is so right. Take for example my 6205. I saw it on IG. I called the dealer. I met him next week in Lausanne and I knew when I saw it that I really had to decide right then and then. In that circu...