Automotive

the "feel" of a car...

One of the most consistent recurring themes in the follow up discussions to my recent spate of Quick Looks

click here for blog links to individual quick looks at: Bugatti Veyron; Ferrari FF; Porsche 991; Chevy Corvette 427 CE; Bentley GT V8; Audi S8:

Click here for blog links to individual quick looks at: Aston Martin DB9, BMW M5, Maserati GranCabrio, Mercedes Benz AMG SL63, Ford Mustang

is the topic of "feel" and more importantly the seeming loss or perversion of it.

It would be interesting to have a discussion on the subject of "feel" itself, and maybe get some engineering insights from the more tech savvy among us as to why this might be...

Le Bimb:

"I can imagine exactly what you mean, a 560 hp car that doesn't feel extremely quick even though it is ... that's the new trend it seems ... .

I recently drove a new 3-series and was really disappointed with it, i read everywhere that the new 3 series is such an involving driverscar but it felt a bit like a wiggle wiggle boat in a way ... the engine (a two liter diesel) was quite okay but the suspension setup didn't appeal to me"

BDLJ:

"Completely agree about the loss of feel.

Most of this comes from a single factor.

Weight.

But also the fact that without the driving aids, these cars would be scarily undriveable. The difficulty of 'just' a spirited launch in a 450hp, 800Nm car with a normal clutch, a manual gearbox and no TC (and a live axle )demonstrates this. Instead, the car companies have given us flappy paddles (to save our poor weak left legs) and rubbish steering wheel feel (to allow the hugely wide tyres - due to weight - to be able to worked in a car park) and ridiculous power that isn't particularly fun. I don't blame the 'new' generation of drivers.

But nothing on the M5 says how far gone it is than the Soundaktor! "

Patrick_Y:

"And also during my experience with a S5 (I know, different car entirely, but my impressions of the brand) the car understeered or wanted to understeer noticeably, the steering wheel feel has always felt a bit light compared to the heavier Mercedes-Benz and BMW equivalents, allow me to iterate, it was a very precise steering, just overly power-assisted and had a disconnected feeling. I'm just wondering if they've cured my previous gripes with the steering. "

A Purist by private email - the second paragraph comments about the newer 335 vs the older 325 are the most telling and dive directly to the heart of the matter:

"I enjoyed all your quick reviews. I haven't driven any of those vehicles, so hard to comment. But I did step into the C63 AMG with too many pre-conceived ideas and came away impressed. Probably more than with the M3.

And interested in your comments on the direction BMW are taking. I got the new 335i when it was released in February. The Comfort setting is a little too floaty and the Sport settings are a little too firm without providing quite the same feedback as the previous model. I had a 325i before that and while I couldn't fiddle as much with suspension and drivetrain settings the basic setup of the whole car was better. But I am still happy with many other aspects of the new 3 series, so the change was generally positive. "

Thoughts or comments? Insights?

Cheers, and keep the rubber side down and the Smokey's out of your rear view mirror.

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i think i preferred cars from the 80's and 90's

By: G99 : November 23rd, 2012-11:52

They had less or even no driver aids so you drove using the feel through the seat of your pants. Modern power steering is often too light so you lose the feel of what the front wheels are doing and suspension with adjustable settings often means there is ...

You hands and assometer...

By: ThomasM : November 24th, 2012-14:38

Hi, Graham, Interesting observation you made, one that is not obvious - the more driver seat "adjustadable" (maybe "selectable" is a more apt term?) suspension settings a car has, the likelihood the more "dead" and artificial the "feel" of the car. hmmm.....

I may be a radical example...

By: DonCorson : November 23rd, 2012-13:27

and I have never driven any of the cars in your list of quick looks, but from my probably very unusual perspective: Outside of the usual "means of transport" that I have to drive from time to time, the only cars I have driven recently are the Lotus Elise ...

Excellent commentary, Don, and coming from someone I know who can...

By: ThomasM : November 24th, 2012-14:44

drive well (ah, those fun days in Las Vegas and the karting session! Thanks, Chopard!) much appreciated. "Elise - the driver is not only in control, but does the controlling in detail. Maserati - the driver directs, but lets the automation in the vehicle ...

Easy.

By: BDLJ : November 23rd, 2012-14:07

The most enjoyable car I've driven in the last 6 months was a '34 MG. No synchro, tiny clutch travel, Very direct steering, cable brakes, cammy engine, super skinny tyres on lovely wire wheels.... just braking and dropping a gear required finesse...so muc...

No synchro? Now that's hardcore... [nt]

By: ThomasM : November 25th, 2012-01:31

Simplify and add lightness

By: cazalea : November 24th, 2012-11:51

Thomas, I think optimum "feel" does involve some filtering by the engineers and good mechanical condition of the specific vehicle you are driving, but also as stated by the other posters, a minimum of weight and a maximum of connection between the driver ...

Some very interesting points, Cazalea, with some revealing comments.

By: ThomasM : November 25th, 2012-01:39

Hi, Mike, To a certain extent, it is about preferences, which of course has a lot to do with what we cut our teeth on. Two frequently repeated statements say as much - "I seem to keep getting cars that were, or similar to, the cars of my youth." "My girlf...

'Feel' ....

By: bimbeano : November 25th, 2012-12:54

Last year i could try an Elise like Don's ... me and a friend just had a blast in the Clio Rs and a minute later i could take the steering wheel of his Elise ... The first minutes were difficult .... very very difficult, no powersteering made me realize m...

Most frightening drive of my...

By: G99 : November 25th, 2012-13:20

Most frightening drive of my life was probably being your passenger on that bend when the wheel met the wheel arch. I think i would have more fun in mr b's vintage mini than in any car that i would actually buy to live with on a daily basis. Stripped out,...

Why I will always be fan of the 50s and 60s Euro cars

By: mrsnak : November 26th, 2012-18:47

...and I say this as I have torn down the motor on my Renault Caravelle and completely going through the rear end suspension. Just love the tactile experience with being able to tweak and modify these simple mechanicals to perform better.

Absolutely, snak.

By: BDLJ : November 27th, 2012-00:08

I replaced the upper control arms on my erstwhile Giulia to convert it to positive camber...which got wound up for track days and hill-climbs. Plus adding an LSD off a 2000...polyurethane bushes....reinforcing the rear trailing arms...fiddling with roll b...

One query Ben...

By: dreamer8 : November 27th, 2012-18:56

why positive camber ? I thought a bit more negative camber would suit the track better to give a bigger contact tyre contact patch on bitumen when car corners at speed. Having said that I am totally against the insane over 1.5 degree ( 1 degree negative i...

I'm looking forward to Ben's response, Dreamer. I had a chance to drive

By: ThomasM : November 27th, 2012-20:53

"a track mod'ed" S2000 recently. It drove like a dream, up to the limit - very well planted, balanced. But it lost traction at much lower speeds, and felt light at the limits, than I would have expected given how it handled just below those limits, as wel...

Simple.

By: BDLJ : November 28th, 2012-01:48

I typed it wrong. And the screen on my phone meant my proof reading went awry. :-) Should have read 'convert *from* positive camber'. I used to run about 1.5 on the road. And more on the track. These were 185/65 tyres, the high profile could take it. Not ...

Thanks ....

By: dreamer8 : November 28th, 2012-02:32

for clarifying. You are right , the amount of negative camber can be greater for higher aspect ratio tyres ( more rounded shoulders ). Interesting information about auto unions having positive camber to balance out oversteer from rear. The notorious rear ...

Positive/Negative

By: BDLJ : November 28th, 2012-03:27

Other old open wheelers did it, too. Next time you see one, have a look at how upright or splayed the fronts are. I should have added that the Alfa standard camber was something like +0.5 which sounds wrong, but was probably a consequence of eve. narrower...

Older cars

By: 41northpole : November 28th, 2012-03:56

Getting on a bit now, so my dream garage pretty much all comes from the 70's :-) I am lucky enough to have a Giulia GTV 2000 from 1972. No gizmos of any description and just so wonderful to drive. The greatest thing about older cars is the lack of extreme...