Carlos22
373
The problem with this scenario is that you are assuming an efficiency of over 100%.
When the two barrels wind down, some energy is lost moving the gears and the hands. Yet more energy is lost moving a rotor to feed these two barrels. That rotor would have to be over 100% efficient to generate the same amount of energy back into the two barrels, plus the surplus needed to show the time. There is energy lost in every friction point. The balance wheel even loses energy from the resistance of the air inside the case! You would need to operate the watch in a vacuum, have 0 friction, or have a magical winding system that puts out more energy than it receives.
Think of regenerative braking on an electric car. What you are positing is to have the battery charged to full capacity solely from the regeneration, but in a lossy system, this is impossible because you need to first move the car using some external energy before you are able to regenerate via the friction created by the brakes while slowing the car.
A Mechanical Watch Movement that Never Stops
and I don't mean not just an Automatic movement which requires the wrist movement to get the rotor to rewind it. A watch movement where even if the watch is stationary and not on a watch winder or a wrist keeps on ticking and not stopping. I am not an eng...
From Wikipedia
" Atmos is the brand name of a mechanical torsion pendulum clock manufactured by Jaeger-LeCoultre in Switzerland which does not need to be wound manually. It gets the energy it needs to run from temperature and atmospheric pressure changes in the environm...
You would always need an external source of energy…
Due to the friction inherent in a mechanical movement. The energy stored in the mainspring is used up when moving the gears and the hands. In order to re-wind the mainspring you need an external force to compress the spring. This constant of energy in a c...
I agree
it does need a source of energy to push the rotor to help rewind the mainsprings in a three barrel movement where the third barrel is used to store energy to help push the rotor so that the movement never runs out of power reserve and since it is a time o...
So you are proposing a perpetual motion machine then?
I wish you all the luck in the work with that.
No Sir
proposing an automatic movement where the winding of two barrels that store energy to run the movement of a time only watch while it winds down and a third barrel that stores energy to give a push to a rotor that with its weight rotates and recharges the ...
The problem with this scenario is that you are assuming an efficiency of over 100%.
When the two barrels wind down, some energy is lost moving the gears and the hands. Yet more energy is lost moving a rotor to feed these two barrels. That rotor would have to be over 100% efficient to generate the same amount of energy back into the two ...
thank you for your great reply, yes you make perfect sense, that is why I was proposing a three barrel system to compensate for those losses and a rotor that has the purpose
of winding up the barrels up again. Where the 2 barrels are solely for the time only movement, no other complications and the third barrel to compensate for any losses of energy and giving the rotor just a push, nothing more.
Steven Phillips and the Budapest Watch Company
We both had the same idea, but he had the skill and know how to make it happen from dated December 12, 2002 " The world’s first self-powered mechanical watch movement has been invented by American master watchmaker Steven Phillips. The mechanism, which h...
Ah. So basically this runs on temperature differential. Yes. I remember a post about this on another forum back in 2002 or so...
What you were saying, however is very inaccurate. Specifically. ""in a three barrel movement where the third barrel is used to store energy to help push the rotor so that the movement never runs out of power reserve". The movement uses a bi-metallic strip...
I am sure what I am saying is inaccurate hahaha I am not an engineer or watchmaker, so welcome any feedback to correct my idea so it might work, regarding Steven Phillips...
my understanding is the patent had been filed and he was working on the movement but passed away, not sure how many were made or was it completed contact Steven Phillips at the Budapest Watch Co., 1250 Boston Post Road #10, Guilford, Conn. 06437. (877) 49...
I remembered that and...
Wanted that watch badly. Too bad nothing ever came of it. Where did the prototype go?
A Challenge worth pursuing I feel, there are enough talented and genius watchmakers out there to take it up and make it happen
my bet is on Andreas Stehler or Paul Gerber to be able to take on the challenge
Hi Sir, did you know of Steven Phillips and the Budapest Watch Company?
here is a very interesting link from our past www.watchprosite.com S
If the watch is stationary and in vacuum - impossible.
Sorry for being lazy but will just quote Wikipedia Perpetual motion is the motion of bodies that continues forever in an unperturbed system. A perpetual motion machine is a hypothetical machine that can do work infinitely without an external energy source...
yes it is an automatic movement with three barrels for a time only movement, two barrels to have enough power reserve to keep the movement running and
the third one to basically push the rotor to revolve using its own weight to help recharge the 3 barrels
This isn't physically possible
What you're describing is a perpetual motion machine () at the scale of a wristwatch, which isn't possible due to physics/thermodynamic laws. The closest we have in this case is as Nico pointed out, the JLC Atmos which although seems like it's running per...
what about the other two barrels, won't they have enough stored energy to keep a time only watch going? and the third barrel is there to push the rotor while the weight of the rotor helps its it
to revolve and recharge the two barrels and the third one.
If you can make energy out of thin air...
...you would solve all of the energy problems in the world. But you might raise the ire of global energy consortiums and of course they would have to eliminate you. You're gonna need a good exit strategy.
Hahaha
well the movement will be wound up initially so not out of thin air to store energy in three barrels of which two unwind to help run the time only movement and the third barrel is just there to push the automatic rotor so that it can rotate under its own ...
Yep exactly that's why it's impossible
You're expecting a rotor rotated by one barrel's energy to further produce enough energy to recharge three barrels, which is basically making energy out of thin air
no the 2 barrels are there for powering the time only movement, the third barrel is there to compensate for any energy losses and to give the rotor just a push
the rotor will rotate on its own because of its weight, it is an automatic movement
I think the late Steven Phillips came closest with his Eternal Winding System.
This was essentially a reduced size Atmos clock. Here's the patent. worldwide.espacenet.com Regards, Baruch
Thank you for sharing this, WoW, here is what the patent says
"This invention comprises the provision of a temperature sensitive element within a timepiece which includes a casing, movement, mainspring and a bi-directional rotation to unidirectional rotation converting mechanism for winding the mainspring where the ...
Impossible.
Such movement would violate the laws of thermodynamics, since what you are talking about is a perpetual motion machine. If we could make a watch that functions in that way then we would also be able to produce infinite energy. The conservation of energy w...
I am not proposing a perpetual motion machine.....
there are movements with 2 to 4 barrels which are used for multiple complications which exist today. My proposal is that instead of having multiple complications we can create an automatic movement with 3 barrels of which 2 are used to power the watch mov...
You would still need to provide energy to the third barrel
If you do that you are just subtracting energy from the rest of the movement, since you are creating more friction by increasing the number of interacting parts. All of the energy employed with the intent of making the power reserve be longer would actual...
I think that the third barrel would be the "complication" in this case
This has been a problem in horology for a long time: fighting against friction. Unfortunately we will never beat it, but we can try to minimize it.
there is a watch like this, if I understand you correctly
where the mainspring charges a smaller spring that drives the escapement. The small spring is kept at the same tension, only charging from the mainspring when needed, so the watch theoretically keeps better time. One of the smaller high end manufacturers ...
One of Steven Phillips Creations
and a post by the owner " Bought this years ago, not exactly sure why, but I thought that the watch was "interesting". After some deeper research today, this piece becomes a whole lot more interesting. I have included some photos, and some links below to ...
Service
Hello, I happen to own of of his Guardian ii watches, can’t find anyone to service them, did you find some who can?? I’m Mike
Maybe there's something to be learned...
...from this little guy. Evaporative cooling is critical here... ...
if what you propose could actually be done, there are a lot bigger problems to apply it to.
In effect, you'd be solving climate change in one fell swoop. I would suggest studying the difference between stored (potential) energy (think mainspring) and kinetic energy (think balance wheel motion and hand movement). You're suggesting an infinite amo...
I know logically and factually you are right,,, but between your logic and my crazy idea I think there could be a way to make something work
the current power reserves we have on watches is not enough, need to push it further and to the limit
Guardian I watch for sale
Hello, All If any one is interested in Stephen Phillips Guardian I watch so i have one for sale.
that is great
please post an ad for sale with pictures in the Collectors Market www.watchprosite.com #fs:0 Thank You Sir, S
Not a 100% mechanical solution . . .
but if the goal is for the watch to always keep time without winding, how about the Ressence Type 2? A brilliant and elegant solution!
Hello
Did you sell it?? Did you ever have it serviced?? I have two of the guardian ii watches
Update Dominique Renaud and Julien Tixier watch
In Jocke's recent amazing post he shared a very interesting watch In Jocke's words " This movement is loaded with unique things like the micro rotor have a auxiliary mechanism that stores energy and releases it like a catapult. So it wind the movement ev...
practically perpetual energy without loss is not at application level...
the closest I can think of is the Atmos clock. Best, mahesh.,
What do you think of the Renaud Tixier movement...
With the catapulting auxiliary mechanism that winds the movement
Yes, the perpetual motion thread
Eternally rewound by the dreams of those who put more energy into dreaming than winding their watches (he said, as he walked over to smile at his Atmos)