Nomer
437
Two thoughts
Hello Pplater,
A wonderful and thought provoking post - I hope the discussion can, as you suggest, avoid slipping into the typical elements that lead to locked posts! I had two abstract thoughts, one on value and the other on a common theme:
1. Value: For me, value in watches represents trading a portion of my earnings for the best efforts of someone else. Value here is the belief, which importantly, is a personal one in the end, that one is able to use the fungible instrument of money to fairly trade for someone else's skill. While I don't believe in any ideology in the extreme, the thoughts of Ayn Rand on capitalism and for those not familiar, Francisco d'Anconia's speech on money and "value" ring a bell in your philosophical query. If one does an internet search on "Fransisco's money speech" you will find the full length version. Again, it's not so much the ideology but the concept of having a personal view that you have exchanged the product of your efforts fairly for those of someone else and ultimately their belief that they can perform the same trade for money (at fair value I hope) and then spend in a similar concept for other goods.
2. Common theme: Watches, like most precision machinery, are largely mechanical pieces of metal with various gears and well fitting precision parts; nothing special. What makes the magic? It's the fact that when wound our watches beat like a heart and with a life; they literally do come alive. That they can do this with high levels of precision through accurate timekeeping, gives their life a purpose. When watches break and are not fixable, they return to being lumps of metal; their value at risk until they are fixed again and restored to their accurate life beat.
All the best and thanks again for the thought provoking post.
An open question...
Stop and think about it for just a moment; is there just one thing that all of our ‘precious toys’ have in common? “Easy", you say: “they all tell the time”. Not if you’re the owner of the Haldimann H8, or the Romain Jerome double tourbillon, they don’t. ...
I think Passion is the common thing shared by our " Tic Tacs " and us.
Or .. The common value. My point is that the financial value is very subjective. For example, I think that it is more logical to spend some bucks on a JLC Duometre than on a PP 5070, because the Duometre offers more than the 5070 on an horological point o...
I don't know, counselor. I think your post may alleviate the very fears you profess.
Your explanation, Nicolas, as to your assigned value (greater) of the Duometre to the 5070 is exactly what pplater is asking for, I think. Because you identify it (correctly) as a subjective assignment of relative value, endless debate cannot truly occur....
Thank you, CJ, thank you!.....
You are on fire! As the youth of Australia might say: "You s-o-o-o-o get it"! Proof positive that maybe we could do this if we decided we want to. Cheers, pplater.
pplater, it's always good to be in agreement with you! In fact,
I respect and, pardon me for the pun, value your opinion so much I get nervous when we're in diagreement! Best, CaliforniaJed
I'm sorry, pplater.
I simply cannot make any cents of your last reply! ;-) Best, CaliforniaJed
Thank you Amanico....
... not only for your wise words, but also for being a good 'sport' when you are referred to by name! ;-) Were you making an argument to be 'the Devil's Advocate'? (This is a reference which 'translates', isn't it?). It does not escape attention that you ...
" Devil Advocate " ... Now you speak, pplater... :)
Yes, I own the Duometre and the 5070... And I love them for what they are, as explained in my answer. What disturbs me with the 5070 is that this Chrono is too often associated to " Value ", you know, these " Will it keep its value " or " Is it a good inv...
Firstly...
Kudos to pplater for another thought provoking post. As for the question at hand, I don't think its possible. Moderated or self-regulated, this discussion about values is simply unable to succeed due to the fact that the medium being used is the internet....
You are too kind, Rob...
As for your reply: reason suspects that you are correct, but vaulting ambition hopes that you are not! Cheers, pplater.
wow, lengthy scholarly post
I think we are discussing value in a very indirect way almost everyday on this forums, with advertisements, like the incessant Linde Werdelin one on the right of this screen, to the "reviews" given by fellow purists on watches, such as the recent GG Bulga...
haha
I just thought about this the first instance I read Pplater's question. Might not be a good answer.
Discussing the value might be too complicated
but the value for the money is perhaps a bit easier. Let's take an example: I guess that Longines Legend Diver represents a good value for the money . Most of us who are familiat with this watch can probably agree. Fuerthermore, i.e. Rolex 14060M represen...
Hypotheses on Value and Passion
Hypothesis 1: The value of an object to an individual is a function of individual and social meanings . The watch one inherits from a loved one, the gift from one's wife or friend, the first watch, the wedding watch, and the watch representing an achievem...
Value.....
In my opinion there are two measurements of value..... A/. monetary one, that is determined by the market.... taking Amanico"s example, 5070 is much more sought after and commands a higher market value while the duometre is certainly a more interesting in...
It's hard to discuss value.
I think most of us would agree that a lot of companies seem to have decided that the "value" or "value for money" approach is not for them. That is their privilege: they are in business to make a profit, and if they decide they will optimize their profits...
So it is, mkvc....
.... so it is. Then again, it is hard to discuss ethics for all the same reasons, but we would be poorer for not trying, wouldn't we? Actually, ethics is a convenient analogue when we consider the three (of many?) reasons you provide as examples of the 'n...
Value
The investor Warren Buffet likes to talk about "intrinsic value" as being the proper way to assign value to a business. Intrinsic value is the amount of all the cash that a business will generate in its lifetime, discounted to a single, present-day amount...
So what you are saying is that
"value" could be defined as the future pleasure the ownership of the watch discounted to NPV. Am I right? Interesting idea... Best, Kari
Yep...
...and it's going to be a personal decision for everyone, but i think the time of ownership aspect shouldn't be ignored. Think how much you value a watch passed down to you from your father/grandfather: very high intrinsic value, even though the other aes...
I like your thinking...
Let's simplify a little bit and for the sake of simplicity, I am forgetting now the discount factor. At the same time we have the annual inflation everywhere. According to the statistics, I will live still a bit over 20 years. If I would have an opportuni...
Tom, also from Warren Buffet....
... "Price is what we pay; value is what we get". Thank you for your (very apt) take on the question. We all seem to be converging on the conclusion that 'price' is a simple, concrete, uni- dimensional concept which is generally of little interest to us i...
Financial value versus price
I used these interchangeably as well, but you are correct that they are different but related entities. A price is an objective amount that one pays for a watch. But financial value is subjective and takes into account whether the watch was worth the pric...
Two thoughts
Hello Pplater, A wonderful and thought provoking post - I hope the discussion can, as you suggest, avoid slipping into the typical elements that lead to locked posts! I had two abstract thoughts, one on value and the other on a common theme: 1. Value: For...
This gets the gong...
... for post of the day, Nomer! Thank you so much for the direction to Francisco's speech, and from there to the philosophy of Objectivism, and from there to "Atlas Shrugged" - it has now been added to the 'must read' list (even at 1200 pages!). Your beau...
Value
as related to price, as already stated in so many words, is related to what the market will bear. New luxury watches are priced highly because there are people who are willing to pay that price. If watches are not moving at the given price, the price shou...
Aspects of value
Thanks pplater, a great topic for discussion. While we avoid talking about monetary value (ie. cost), we certainly discuss other aspects of value when we talk about watches. While we can have an immediate response to a watch in front of us (like listening...
Being someone in HR, I would rate value that is non monetary but on the
amount of emotional connection/satifaction that you can derive from that horological piece. Akin to marriage? cheers PAt
What i value..?
Well PPlater, yet another mind breaking interesting topic from my second home country --- I think we should and already are discussing value (in some respect) in some posts. Value has to do with what we as individuals value on a watch - which might change...
Value - interesting discussion
The example from Nico is ok, but I think it is even more difficult if we start to discuss the value of different AP Royal Oaks: Most of my (non WIS!) friends think the/my RO is an somehow "ugly" watch. They don´t understand why I spent money on that,...