ThomasM
[PuristS]
14331
You've raised another separate, interesting point..."value retention"
Hi, George,
The issue of "market price" vs "intrinsic value" is one that is of great, great interest to me (I'm an economics academic, trained in quantitative analysis but gave it all up when markets and especially individuals generally act "irrationally" and commentators would change their rationales and analysis as quickly as the shifting tides and sands..."the markets went up because Kim JI farted..." then the next day "the markets went up because Kim JI didn't fart today...") and a large part of ThePuristS and now PuristSPro was dedicated to shining the light on "intrinsic value" to counterbalance the often banal and self serving endless monkey chatter about "this is better, see, look at the auction prices!"
That said, I agree that poor overall average quality SHOULDN'T retain value.
Q: please define "quality"
Q: what are your perceptions of "value retention"? are you talking percentages, or nominal dollars?
You mention competent and skilled mechanics, you forget honest too...that noted, do you think the 959 can be serviced by the average Porsche mechanic? I have a bit of experience in the Porsche world (though certainly not as much as many others) - there are quite a number of incompetent and overpriced "Porsche specialists" who charge 3-10x the labour rate and 2-5x the price for the same VW part...it's a slippery slope, for sure, just like Citizen vs Grand Seiko vs Omega / Rolex vs PP/AP/VC/Lange vs Dufour / Voutilainen...
I happen to know a few competent and skilled Lamborghini (and Ferrari, Koenigsegg, Bugatti, et al) mechanics, certainly as many as competent 959 mechanics.
I'm not disagreeing with your main points, just would like to be careful to avoid dangers of generalizations and unexplicated assumptions and sub-conscious biases...
Cheer,
TM
Can a watch (or any manufactured object) be douchey? and if so, what does that say about those that like / use / own it?
Hi, There was a recent sub-thread (in the photography forum, of all places) about Lamborghinis and their owners / drivers being "douchey" and "douchebags" "My neighbor recently got a Lambo, and only after being called a douche-bag by his wife, kids busine...
Let's face it
A Lamborghini is not the most refined styled car on earth. Same goes for Richard Mille and Hublot (looking at watches)... I'm not stating they are douchey, but the chances are high that the person owning either and or probably both are not shy of attentio...
Not entirely wrong
However the so called "new money" items if of poor overall average quality don't retain their value well overall. How many modern cars of the 80-90's depreciate due to bad aging electronics and relatively expensive maintenance like italian supercars? Plus...
You've raised another separate, interesting point..."value retention"
Hi, George, The issue of "market price" vs "intrinsic value" is one that is of great, great interest to me (I'm an economics academic, trained in quantitative analysis but gave it all up when markets and especially individuals generally act "irrationally"...
Quality is for me defined by how well an object lasts over one or two decades without having a problem and consistantly working well & responding to a normal daily use
Also I should mention that some things in the past were made to last very very long unlike some modern and contemporary objects which are good to throw up after less than a decade. In the past there were less electronics and assistances in cars than there...
Thank you, Georges, you certainly know much about the areas
Of interest to you. Enjoyed reading your comments, raised some interesting thoughts about (perceived) quality, and (perceived) value. Digesting... Thanks, TM
excellent very interesting points.
Hi, Arie, About design - both pure "design" (the non-functional aspects of design, sometimes called "style" but all these terms are soft and ambiguously used) and engineering (for example, the exhaust note and volume) - there are no absolutes, imho, and b...
Short and simple - no!
If not for any other reason then for mere fact that they are material objects. Doucheness comes from " consciousness". Sincerely D
A Chinese phrase translation, "Saying the grapes are sour by someone who cannot taste it"...
This is a huge and fair world, right or wrong is subjective, actually depending on who/what is the majority or major in power. Outliers definitely exist, not just cars or watches but I don't really feel Lambo or their owners belong to that category. Inter...
One part of me wholeheartedly understands and agrees, the other part...
Hi, Raymond, The abstract theorist in me says, "Yes, absolutely, everything is relative!" and agree that subjectivity, in POV, in context, even in age (of society) and culture, makes any broad sweeping statements misleading at best, implicitly fascist at ...
To your PS: YES!
I own a Hublot but I'm not a ____ (whatever that people would generally associate with a Hublot wearer). I buy a watch for what it appeals and means to me, not to others.
I think personally that everything is matter of tastes as well as likes or dislikes and to each their own and that we can agree to disagree politely
Italian and French cars are definitely not my thing because I prefer mostly German cars from the 80's till the 00's and American cars from 1957 to 1971 including some modern cars from the 90's and the 00's.A lambo is flamboyant, flashy and definitely not ...
That's the sort of position we generally hold around here.
Hi Georges, To each their own, we may disagree on matters of taste but we respect each other's choices even if we passionately share our own POV, if asked for. And sometimes even when not... 🙄😆🤣😂
Can we scientifically / rationally / conclusively answer a question that includes the word "douche"?
Heck no, we can't even decide which car is "green" or not (see exhibit below). I tried to apply my DouchoMeter to the question and came up with this result: What really irks me is BMW's success in marketing the 3 series to all sorts of non-BMW people. Whe...
I couldn't get Porsche Cayenne, Aston Rapide and BMW i8 all on the meter
at once, it started smoking
Trouble with cars that aren't firmly planted on the stereotype meter is you don't know who your fellow owners will be!
Will they be like this?? (yes) or like this (please, no) ...
I don't think "objects" are douchey
without the user making them douchey. There are things I would probably never own because every one I met who owned the thing was a douche. And there are some things in this world that may more likely attract douches. But the thing itself has no personali...
My kneejerk tendency is to agree, but Elliot55's reply in this thread
Raises an interesting alternative POV. I wonder if it's a semantic thing or a conceptual one. Cheers, TM
The Liberal / Progressive take on Lamborghini
"Brian, a divorce lawyer from Long Island, New York, and his wife, Divina — who grew up dirt poor, and jokingly but accurately said she made her money “by marrying a rich man” — were in their fourth Lamborghini." VISIT THE SEATTLE TIMES ARTICLE The Articl...
Brian and his bright reflective Lambos are (notoriously) well known in Lambo circles...
not to my taste, but I'm sure Brian couldn't care less...
TM, I think at the end of the day it comes down to the great challenge of being human
we are social creatures but each of us have our own motivations & values and when they come into conflict with another set of motivations & values, we are as likely to be reactionary as we are to be understanding. I don't believe any object is douchey in ...
Pirsig had a lot to say about quality
especially his less famous second book. Reminds me to give it a read again! Cheers Giles
My Pleasure, Thomas
His first book - ZATAOMM - was a 'bible' in my late teens / early 20's. Cheers, Giles
:-) Sorry - should have spelled it out. You may well have already read it?
His second book is called 'Lila' from recollection.
It is :)
I have it but it's part of my Eco style anti-library, i.e. the books not yet read
In A Word...
Yes. A watch, or any manufactured object, can be considered 'douchey'. I believe the following to be a couple of examples of watches manufactured to be completely douchey: I cannot be 100% sure what it says about the person who would own this type of item...
As I digest your comments, a few thoughts / questions:
Hi, Scott, Thanks for your thoughts on the subject, in this thread. As I digest your comments, may I ask for a clarification(s)? What does "douchey" mean, as you are using it? To me it is a very derogatory, almost offensive, term, like "cunt" or "slut" us...
With these last two posts I think we are at a point where we need a common definition of the word.
I would disagree with Scott that the items he alludes to are "douchey" in and of themselves. But my sense of the meaning of the word may be different than Scott's. Again, I don't think the item is douchey until a douche uses it in a douchey way. But...mos...
There Is A Bit To Unpack Here, So...
... Here are some answers to your questions. I do not know if the answers are right or wrong, I believe it depends on one's personal point-of-view: *****What does "douchey" mean, as you are using it? To me it is a very derogatory, almost offensive, term, ...
Lol um...
Hi, Scott, In re: "douche" 'After all, in French the word means "shower"' But in English, and particularly in the US, as a verb and noun douche usually refers to vaginal irrigation or the product to rinse the vagina...and generally when used as an adject...
My thoughts.
Name calling and using derogatory terms to describe people for their lifestyle or possessions is not conducive to a harmonious society. Being judgemental and quick to label people into certain categories is discrimination to a certain extent. Different cu...
Indeed indeed and I wholy agree with you on every thing, there should be no tolerance if not zero tolerance with people who just insult and degrade others for the sake of it
We are all different whether it comes to tastes, personality, financial means and way of thinking. However we have one passion, which is watches which goes along with others. This forum is one of the most open minded and kind hearted I know. Some people d...
A different perspective....
In my travels I have found the following questions quite an interesting experience to answer for any product. 1. Do I respect the engineering approach? 2. Do I respect the company corporate values and behaviours? 3. The people engineering it? 4. Do I want...
The only one that springs to mind in Patek...
probably others too... umm Rolex? Just stirring a bit Cheers Andrew