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I think it is important to note the difference between a watchmaker and a movement designer.
As you mention MB&F has been incredibly innovative in their collaborations with Stephen McDonnell, Remi Maillat of Krayon designed high complications at Cartier, Romain Gauthier is an engineer. Such examples are few and far between.
Most independents have just watchmaking background. So there is a limit to what they can do unless they get help, which they often do without being transparent about it like MB&F.
It is much easier to stick to the basics, especially when hand finishing is being democratized by the use of new machinery.
I don't want to dismiss the effort of those young independents, many of the watches are beautiful and unique. But realistically we can't expect to see from them the kind of complications say Lange can come up with. And the fatigue from endless releases of high end finished time only watches is real ...
For people who haven't seen it I highly recommend the Stephen McDonnell lecture at Dubai watch week.couple of years ago.
www.hodinkee.com
Are independents losing their uniqueness?
It feels like a lot of new releases all look the same. Semi-openworked, with amazing hand finishing. But no real focus on engineering/complications? Max Busser said something along these lines earlier this year in an interview and I think he's totally rig...
I definitely reflect those sentiments!
I exchanged a couple of emails yesterday with Sarpaneva, thanking him for executing my watch immaculately well, and pointing out that I find it increasingly difficult to discover and recognize true originality and artistry in high horology.... Perhaps it'...
Valid points.
I am a layman in terms of independent brands and I stopped following them as intently over the past few years. Many new entrants, most are beautiful but they seem to share a common aesthetic feel. To me they are like certain artwork: happy to admire them ...
?
Akrivia AKs, Krayon Everywhere and Anywhere, Sylvain Pinaud monopusher chronograph, Petermann Bedat 2941 and 1967, Renaud Tixier DRT Tempus Fugit and Monday, Dann Phimphrachanh Seconde Vive, Remy Cools Souscription Tourbillon and Tourbillon Atelier, Theo ...
My impression is that....
He was thinking on a grander scale that 10-20 offerings, there have been hundreds of releases that, more or less, look alike or are based on the same fundamentals yet demand exceptional price premiums when you compare to equivalents from the big Maisons.....
He is whinging about
new independents having no real focus on engineering/complications, then went on to praise Max for his chronograph and PC. I've listed many young independents with complications which Patek categorizes as grand complications.
Please …
I know this is a passionate subject but can we have this conversation whilst remaining civil with each other.
I like a lot of the watches on your list.
But for example Akrivia AKs and Berneron rely on third party movements Sylvain - simple module on top of unitas movement Similar with Petermann Bedat , base Valjoux 13 The most impressive watch on the list with movement developed in house is Krayon anywhe...
Akrivia, Sylvain Pinaud and PB
are transitioning to fully in-house movements. They are still young and just started their career not long ago. Grant them time to blossom and develop, and judge them when they have their complete portfolios in 10-20 years' time.
I don't judge them, they have already accomplished a lot.
I am getting a bit tired of this discussion but one last time - the way the Swiss (and English) watch industry always worked was - when you need a complication you go to a specialist. Patek went to AP when they wanted to make the early pocket watch repeat...
Sylvain's chronograph
was initially his project for the Meilleur Ouvrier de France competition. It was not meant to be sold as is, but to demonstrate his capacities around creating a chronograph and finishing. Then, people started to ask him about buying it.
Interesting color - thank you!
I have huge respect for him as a watchmaker. My general point was that given the R&D required, designing an integrated chronograph from scratch is an impossible task for an independent. Look at even AP and how long it took them to move to in-house chronog...
Admittedly not familiar with all of the above but…
…several don’t meet any real innovation threshold to me. Now perhaps there is not that much room left to roam and so real innovation will be scarce. Krayon is one I’ve been looking at a lot this past year. There is something new I think. But another dead ...
I also don't think it's fair
to attack them as a group, simply because they highly hand-polished their watches. There have been some undertones here especially on interior angles. These watchmakers are unique individuals and they use their own scarce resources to produce their watche...
I agree with you on this when we talk about some new brands and releases.
I admit i am looking nowadays more to older indie (or some bigger brands) models then new releases. I still love the look and charming style and designs from lets say a decade (or two) ago . Ofcourse some still make incredible and interesting watches whic...
In retrospect …
Approximately two decades ago, we were in a golden era of independent watch design and manufacture. In my opinion this era began with Vianney Halter and the Antiqua in 1998, which split the traditional perpetual calendar complication into separate subdial...
Yes, I share these sentiments!
I especially have noticed a lot of new releases from smaller indeps which architecturally combine a small off-center dial and a balance assembly on the dial side. Literally, dozens of variations of the same concept. This dilutes the importance of each new...
I think it is important to note the difference between a watchmaker and a movement designer.
As you mention MB&F has been incredibly innovative in their collaborations with Stephen McDonnell, Remi Maillat of Krayon designed high complications at Cartier, Romain Gauthier is an engineer. Such examples are few and far between. Most independents have...
I think the “fatigue” as you note is dangerous…
…this is not a good state to have. While more tenured collectors will have this “fatigue”, I think new collectors and speculators and folks with overblown FOMO will prop up much of these order books for several years. Now, a contradiction to the potential...
I confess to not following all the independent releases
While I see the point that similar designs appear I also have noticed some original ones. To each his own and let the market play out. Singer is a brand that produces some intriguing watches, nothing like the style described in the original post. The watc...
It will pass, same as the 35mm watches:)
A product that only exists in an unfinished Prototype form at best and it’s been pre-sold as it might work, no matter how hard it is pushed by speculators, who follow Journe’s strategy, to me has zero value. The benchmark for me, is at least 20 years in t...
It's partially explained by the fashion of complications
Complicated watches fell out of fashion, maybe 5 to 10 years ago. Or the flood of people that discovered watches during COVID naturally prefer simple watches over perpetual calendars. The environment is quite different from the early 2000s too. Independen...