Ubik
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A great debate
As a vintage collector I think this sort of debate is crucial. It's important to share our thoughts about what we feel is happening in
the vintage watch world. Most of the vintage auctions from the large houses focus 60-80% and above on Patek and Rolex leaving us
to have to dig that much harder for information on other brands.
In their own way Rolex and Patek seem to me to have an advantage for their collectors, there is a liquid market in them that allows the
collector to establish a fair current price on a particular watch. Of course some watches will always be "auction watches", however
very often in other brands where the rarity or the information is less known it is harder to get a feel for what might be a fair price.
While we buy for love, we want that love to be fair!
Of course while we talk of buyers commission, we must not forget sellers commission. The Sellers of these watches will have got 20/25% less
than the hammer price.
As a non JLC collector I look at the prices reached for the Icons and I wonder if others feel there is a continuing trend that's been growing over the past few years as vintage collecting begins to change and mature.
Within each brand, it seems to me, that the most iconic watches soar above the price of the main output of a brand. I think there are still large groups of dedicated brand collectors, but there are also more collectors who wish to own the most interesting examples of certain watches across all brands and build a collection not connected by a single brand theme but by the features or style of the watch.
So if you collect chronometers then there are many brands with their own rarities. The same for divers, pilots, chronographs, dress watches...
In terms of the Polaris and the Deep Sea, I wonder if the recent re-issues have pushed these prices up. The prices reached in Omegamania and the Heuer sale at Bonhams were often very atypical and we've seen over the years they have not necessarily affected the current asking price of a watch.
I'm sure that everyone who collects off the beaten path of vintage watches feels the same, we uncover history and care for the brands we love and
it's a natural response to want to share that information.
JLC Unique Auction Paris, 29th of November: The Results.
We will certainly come back to the results of this auction, but I cannot resist to share with you my first impressions. - First of all, I think we can say that it was a crazy night. A lot of people was attending the second session ( I couldn't be there fo...
Congrats to JLC and new owners
are there PuristS around that want to share some new beauties? Best Damjan
Wish, I would.. if I only could ..
Yes, indeed, Congrats to both ! - One hopes, that several, no many - have found good new homes. Also just as an observer from the distance, but grateful for the reports.. All the best, Damjan hs
Thank you Nico...
for your insight to the results. Very interesting. I salute your hard work. Did you get your watch???? Best my friend. Ed
I assume you got the wrong result sheets.
Nicolas, if it is still time to edit, I think you should look at the final results published yesterday, which shouls alter your analysis as most of the watches you pointed went unsold (there were many unsold lots : 46% of total lots auctionned, a deceptio...
No, not the wrong result sheets, but what I heard.
Which also allows to guess that there was, maybe, a too big gap between the estimate and the value of the market... So, what I wrote is what happened ( on the 2d session, as I was not there for the first session ( Lots 1 to 299 ). The sheet I posted at th...
Nic and Clavi...
I think that it reveals a few things: (1) Perhaps the auction house (or company) should have been different. Would Antiquorum or another house done a better job of pre-auction marketing to build interest and momentum? They definitely would have opened the...
Some thoughts...
1/ I would be curious to see what would another auction house do, in another city, like NY or Geneva, for example. With an even more international " crowd ". 2/ As I attended the 2d part, I can only say what I saw. JLC was bidding on several pieces, won o...
Do I get this right?
Excuse me please, Nicolas, but in the context of disappointing results of an auction " A lot of work has to be done, communication, posts, reviews, discusions, and ... Education" sounds to me as if the purpose of this forum was to enhance the value of som...
Christian, I am afraid I didn't get what you wrote.
But I' m pleased to discuss that. " The purpose of this forum was to enhance the value of someone's collection "? Who's collection? Certainly not mine, I didn't put for sale anything from my collection, so I felt free to speak about it. And I specially me...
There is a fine line ...
... between promoting the virtue of vintage watches altruistically and the self-interested enhancement of their value. This is true for anyone with enthusiasm in vintage watches, but especially for those of us who already own the watches which they promot...
Ok, now I understand, Christian.
Like you, I'm a collector, not a seller.... And when I wrote that post, I didn't have in mind to promote my own collection to sell it in one week or in one month, even not in one year. As we can't know what life will reserve us, I can't say I won't sell m...
In reality he does the work and I cash in ;-)
I have known Nicolas for a long time, and I can say that he is far from what you are here trying to imply. In fact many times, he and I post to inform lightly of what could be a sore experience for many buyers. If you do not understand this and if you hav...
Poy, may I kindly ask you to ...
. .. reread my post thoroughly. I did not allege or express myself negatively about someone. I was just giving voice to my puzzlement about Nicolas' post in the context of recent auction results. It is true, I do not know Nicolas personally - but from his...
HerrK, however I read it, your interaction is weird...
To me, you are venting imaginary suspicions. Of course anything can be manipulated. Nicolas has near 50,000 posts, I believe none of which are in the Collectors Market, that to me is an unquestionable display of an incorruptible passionate enthusiams and ...
That my dear Poy ...
... was a joke referring to recent auction results - seemingly a quite obvious one! Yours weirdly, Christian
Love is in the air
mmmm, the tone this conversation is taking leaves me puzzled. I think a legitimate question has been raised, and it has been answered in a very appropriate way by the person concerned. The rest of the thread could have been avoided I think, I don't see an...
Thank You for your analysis Nico
I checked the auction house for the sold prices earlier today and noted that the 2 versions of the vintage Deep Sea Alarm sold at prices nearly twice that of the vintage Polaris. Is it because the Deep Sea Alarm production is far less than the Polaris ? C...
The European is super rare, while the US DSA had a production number
Very close to the '68 Polaris... This cannot be the explanation. Best, Nicolas.
Vintage JLC
The fact that the auction went well for the vintage JLC does not surprise me at all. JLC is one of the oldest manufacturers with an exceptionally rich history and I think Brands with a rich history will always attract buyers as they become better educated...
You mentioinned the icons, and you're right. BUT
I think there is a lot of work to do on other Vintage pieces which are rare and beautiful. The Date Disc, the Mystery, the MM Chronometer, and many others should have known a better end, certainly. Let's speak about these watches! That is what I will do i...
Thanks you for all your infos. Here, my thoughts....
Jaeger-LeCoultre has always been an important actor in the industry horology. It is recent (10 years) that JLC is adapting to its exposure as an important watch manufacturer and it climbs as near as possible to the top brands podium. Its past and the valu...
Progress, certainly, but still a lot of work to do...
For JLC to get the recognition they deserve... Well put, POY. Best, Nicolas.
I always wonder how true the auction results can reflect the actual value of a watch?
Hi Nicolas, In general, successful bidded price plus 25% buyer's premium, the watches are not cheap, considering some of the "so-so" condition pieces. So, JLC has done quite well. I am not surprised at all that the vintage pieces had out performed the mod...
It is indeed a guide, Ling, and only one auction can't reflect the truth, we agree.
But it's been a while since Vintage JLC are doing well, at the auctions. You're right, a lot of things can happen at an auction. Two weeks ago, we saw a black E 855 going for 20 000 CHF. Who would have guessed that??? It was because there was a fight betw...
From a humble distance.. First of all..
.. a BIG, indeed very big Thank you for this report, update, education, AND pleasure, you again provided to us, Nico ! ( Thanks to Clavi , as well, in am appropriate way !) I first had to read and re-read it, digest some of it, think about it - and well, ...
It is a long journey, made of great joys, and smetimes, of deceptions.
It takes time, my friend, as every solid journey you consider... But the reward is as huge as the efforts. You know that, you experienced it yourself. As for your questions, yes, the owner can decide to get the unsold pieces, or to put them in a further a...
Words of wisdom.. Words of friendship.. They go a long way ! :))
-- Thank you for these so kind sentiments, Truly I missed you all and all that else. BUT, there always can and will be a next time, hopefully .. Best, my friend in return, also for your weekend ! hs
Thx soo much.. Could be Q1/ next year, J'espère .. ;)
- BUT, as always : how good to know ! ) Difficult wait, anyway .. Paris.. Lights.. Friends.. Armagnac.. and else... Best again, hs PS: - pls see my PM
Thanks a lot for the report of the auction results.
So, if I understand you well, you feel that this auction was positive for the JLC image. Obviously, a highlight on the rich history of the Manufacture thanks such event is never a bad thing. But don't you think that the number of timepieces was too large ...
I have mixed feelings, here.
On the first post I made on this auction, I said that I was surprised by the fact that there were too many pieces, of unequal quality, to say the least. I even predicted that there will be many unsold watches, which is the case, and which is not positive....
Very interesting feedback Nicolas, thank you.
I'm not a vintage expert, at all, but I had an "intelectual" interest in looking closely to the event. I must say that I've been somtimes surprised by the results. Anyway, I answered myself that there should be a specific reason I didn't know at that time...
Thanks to you for sharing your input.
I think there is a lot of food for thought, in the Vintage and the Moderns. Yes, we always think " hey I should have bid on it " once the auction is over... But the truth of gthe moment is the only truth. If you didn't fight, you must have had somùe ...
Thank you for this post, Nicolas!
Very interesting outcome – a lot of mixed feelings… On one hand I am very happy for JLC making such fantastic outcome on (some of) the vintage pieces. On the other hand – this indicates that it will be even more expensive in the future to hunt these beaut...
Well, Blomman, I think this auction is an indication rather than a reference.
I doubt every Deep Sea Alarm, Polaris and Reverso will make such a score each time we see one for sale. But this auction clearly showed that Vintage JLCs in general receive some good appreciation, some more than others, but it is the same for every brand....
A great debate
As a vintage collector I think this sort of debate is crucial. It's important to share our thoughts about what we feel is happening in the vintage watch world. Most of the vintage auctions from the large houses focus 60-80% and above on Patek and Rolex le...
About what?
Watches or prices? We should not confuse the prices of with the value of watches. And which criteria have to be met to make a price a "fair" one? On the question about reflexivity you raised: It would be only natural if there was a feedback loop between t...
Well, in that case many of us here have to be psychic!
Since the original Deep Sea Alarm has been a topic here in the forum for years… Best Blomman
Recollections tend to be deceptive, Blomman!
Do a forum search! Mentioning of the DSA before Nicolas' reviews of the Polaris, JLC Divers and the DSA in 2008: one handful. Mentioning of the DSA after Nicolas' reviews of the Polaris, JLC Divers and the DSA in 2008: several hundreds. Any further questi...
I'd love to know the answers to your questions.
" We should not confuse the prices of with the value of watches." Can you tell me, in your opinion, what the difference between the value of a vintage watch is and it's price? " And which criteria have to be met to make a price a "fair" one?" What criteri...
I thought it to be common practice ...
... not to answer a question by a question. As you will have noticed from my post I do not advocate a neo-classical position. However it is your turn to substantiate and explain your position first. ;-) Christian
Where I come from we were taught to always
answer a question with a question ) In terms of your line about Value and Price, I was of course wrong. That is a statement not a question. The question about the criteria for "fair" price implied, to me at least,, that you had criteria that you considere...