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What an interesting post with a heated discussion. I suppose one shall not compare the brands but shall compare watches. I would like to leave 3 unbiased thoughts on the subject and a personal opinion.
1) PP are very wearable and this aspect is often looked upon when compared to others.
People mentioned ALS, so I'll use it as an example. We all praise Lange double split and triple split for the insane innovations and craft. But these watches are 15 mm thick, so quite bulky. 5370 looks like a more wearable watch.
So what is better? Innovations or wearability? I suppose the second as watches must be worn not kept in a safe.
2) It is almost impossible to excel in anything. Not all pateks are equal.
PP makes one of the best minute repeaters. PP makes complications that are actually wearable. There are gems like 5004, 5101, 5178, 5275 or 5531 or many others.
At the same time a lot of PP are just OK. Especially in lower price segments.
For me there are two types of PP:
- super expensive that are actually amazing and sometimes better than the competitors;
- all other PP watches.
3) Service
PP is known to be able to repair all its watches, even the old ones. This is huge.
I would like to say that in my opinion opinions that highlight the disadvantages of brands or watches are super important.
Usually posts with criticism are more valuable than the praising ones. You cant find any critical information in professional reviews, so forums are the only place left to stay truly informed.
If there are only cheerful and complimentary posts in the forum it wont be a useful and insightful tool for a watch lover.
Personally I would LOVE to read posts that uncover the flaws my favourite watches like PP5101, PP5131 or ALS Zeiwerk Date or JLC Extreme Lab 2 or... as I am tired to read hundreds of prasing reviews on these watches. And I would always love to read critical reviews thats uncover how brands cut corners and underperform in finishing, technical aspects, etc.
Patek: Finish and perception of quality
In this post, I wish to address the elephant in the room – finishing and the perceived poor value from Patek Philippe (PP). There have been repeated posts regarding PP, that I have let go, but statements such as “overhyped mass market products” was the st...
As long as the sun rises and sets
we will always have differences of opinion on this forum, be it the PP forum, Mont Blanc, JLC, Rolex, Seiko, etc. The differences of opinions are what keeps everyone's "spring wound" so to speak. Not saying I agree, or disagree with you, just saying we ha...
what u consider rude maybe legit to others
u just come across as a little too defensive. makes one wonder about what your motives truly are. then again, u may be the true PP God, in that case, whatever you say goes 😅
Hi! No motives, not even Patek moderator anymore, this was nearly 7 years ago
Things have certainly changed, I must say I was truly ahead of the curve in naming Rexhep as the new King. Independents are now way more prominent among high end collectors. Patek is still highly regarded and will remain so. As for the future and newer cr...
I am certain
that your last sentence is just one person's opinion, not a fact. I am not an expert in anything, so I enjoy a diverse perspective. if u can't tolerate that and only your expert opinion counts, then u are behaving like a bully. Also, I don't think there i...
Cheers to you my friend.
Love opinionated, yet substantiated and respectful posts like this. Just excellent! Cheers, Alex
Let's enjoy what we have for now, life is too short...
At the end of the day the manufacturers are here to make money. They are not in the business for the humanitarian reasons or good of the planet.
Yes I totally agree, hence I will be setting out a position statement on standards
But yes you are right, they are only watches at the end of the day Thank you for keeping our feet on the ground 👍🏻
Your statement is not a fair representation of the facts..
The Hans Wilsdorf Foundation, is registered as a charitable organization. The shares of Rolex are held in the foundation with detailed instructions on how to handle the finances. The first goal of the foundation is to ensure the sustainability of the grou...
Yes indeed, Patek is not to everyone taste, and that’s what makes collecting enjoyable
I don’t mind differences in opinion: its ill informed hate / rudeness that I will put an end too Btw the Breguet is one of my favourite watches and from an aesthetic point , Breguet make the most agonisingly beautiful watches
All I can say is I am happy with my Patek timepieces.
I’m happy to have the opportunity to own the pieces that I like. I am happy that I didn’t err in my decision to get Patek timepieces at a later stage of my life. I am happy that my Patek timepieces have kept their values through the years. I am happy that...
So eloquently put....thank you
“While I always believe that we can always agree to disagree. Let’s continue with fair and objective posting in this forum.”
Well said. I love this forum. I have learned so much.
You all have helped me acquire enough information to make my Patek 5270 purchase very comfortable. Thanks to all. Ps. Day, moon and date are off. Time is correct. I Put the watch in rotation this morning. Need to set it tonight after work. ...
Thank you very much.
I am liking this watch more everyday I wear it. It took some time for me to warm up to the 41mm size.
Imran I have been a long term fan of Lange and have owned many pieces since it’s 90s inception....
Same goes with JLC and I do own heavy pieces north of $75k mark and as you rightly said none stand close to What Patek offers . It’s a complete package . Hate to sound commercial but Patek gives you all what none can offer. Prestige , Quality, Rarity, Res...
"Prestige , Quality, Rarity, Resale , Appreciation and above all Satisfaction"
Wow, you really have summed up some of the well-written odes to Patek that have come out recently. While Patek won't be a focus for me, it's hard not to appreciate the passion it evokes among purists.
Still no match for Vacheron Constantin
Vacheron Constantin is the Founder of Haute Horology and it`s Royal Heritage is unmatched by pp , but the latter has higher resale value and higher prices paid in auctions due to : 1- better advertising 2-it`s own staff who set high bids . The second poin...
Thank you, Imran!
Excellent post, and thank you for setting some records straight while also advocating for a respectful and reasoned dialogue. By the way, Larry Pettinelli did an interview with Gear Patrol today where he says the hand finishing is the same in a Calatrava ...
Excellent posts! Glad you commented passionately on this issue
This is a fantastic article. We need more of such sharing! Also Walts article definitely should be revisited from time to time. Great stuff. I'm a huge fan of pp. To me they r in their own special realm, no comparison. That said, because they are pp, that...
In my opinion
Patek offers the complete watch in every category. Some may prefer the designs of other watches but when it comes to the important areas of reliability, accuracy, exclusitivity, movement design and finishing,after sales service service and resale value, I...
Er…
I have bought maybe eight PP at authorized dealers, none has kept decent time, and I’ve never felt being a member of a “family” except my own. In the case of PP, I’ve certainly never have felt a member of that family, rather on the contrary. But then, no ...
It boggles my mind that people still think a case and bracelet has much handwork involved...
Today, polishing, brushing and bevelling is all made by CNC machine with almost non human hands involved. And that Rexhep Rexhepi learned by Patek Philippe (worked for F.P. Journe) doesn‘t compliment Patek Philippe per se, it compliments their teaching in...
Stop bogling your brain, I spent 2 days in the manufacture watching it all being made
the case and bracelet are all finished by hand Maybe you should get your facts right before tapping
Take it easy
no need to get offended by your fellow members opinions . We have the right to express our views just like you . this forum is for sharing thoughts .
i don't think for a second that Miranda is offended.....
Rather, I think he is merely pointing out that Datograph was making factually inaccurate statements that were based on a lack of knowledge. Opinions are great and welcomed. But on Watchprosite, we try to make sure opinions are informed and based on facts....
I‘m not making factually incorrect statements!
First of all I know how a company operates and how it sells itself to customers (my company also guides customers through the facility and shows them how we produce everything ourselves...) and second, recently published an interview where a watchmaker f...
I am afraid you are mistaken
Like Miranda, I have also visited the Patek Philippe manufacturer (three occasions for me, probably more for Miranda) and I can tell you categorically that your statement is incorrect. I have seen with my own eyes.
I’m not going to take your believe....
...but visiting a facility means nothing today. The company I work for does the same thing as I already mentioned and we have all the machines and skills to do so, but we don’t do it. There is a reason why marketing works... people believe too much!
Give it a rest.
You saw a tv show and your company scams customers. And that is what you base your opinions on?
Don Baron...
I am eagerly awaiting your daughter's wedding day, so I can ask for a favor. I'm just afraid it will never happen.
And that’s why....
..... guys who only wish to slag off the brand and spout inaccurate BS won’t be participating in the forum.
No match for Vacheron Constantin
Vacheron Constantin was the King and pp never even dreamt of reaching Vacheron Constantin level till early seventies . Kings and Emperors always comissioned Vacheron watches . It is the Oldest continuious manufacturer since 1755 with unmatched Royal Herit...
If I may say so,
Kings and Emperors also commissioned Cartiers and Breguets but that does not mean that these watches were a match for Vacheron and Patek. If Vacherons was the King as you put it, I am quite astonished why this has not been recognised at watch auctions whe...
I own both . But ,
Vacheron Constantin is the Founder of Haute Horology and it`s Royal Heritage is unmatched by pp , but the latter has higher resale value and higher prices paid in auctions due to : 1- better advertising 2-it`s own staff who set high bids . The second poin...
Thank you for your reply Mohammad
I do not believe Patek do well at auctions and have a better resale value due to advertisements since many brands like Rolex, Omega and Longines do advertise a lot more extensively and are also major sponsors of various events and yet only Rolex do well a...
Excellent reply
Absolute comparisons like 'Founder of Haute Horlogy' make no sense - both companies are more than 150 years old which gives us sufficient time horizon to compare. Royal families bought both Patek, Vacheron, and many other brands. For some people appreciat...
Thank you CastorKrieg :-)
We are fortunate to be living in a period where we are spoiled for choice when it comes to the watches on offer, be it from a large brand or from a small independent. Yes this can sometimes give us a real dilemma when deciding what to buy but it is a plea...
What is the Patek forum a basis for?
Imran, Many thanks for this post. You set out to clarify and inform using knowledge rather than unfounded opinion. I think that when one is discussing Patek Philippe watches, there is a growing tendency for people who have never owned a Patek, never will ...
Great report.
Can I just check one thing, from my very limited knowledge of metals I actually thought German silver is harder than brass not softer (due to the higher Nickel content of German/Nickel silver) and hence the requirement to Rhodium coat brass? Many perceive...
It's not actually just the hardness per se...
A metal actually needs to be of a certain hardness and elasticity in order to be polished. For instance, only Grade 5 Titanium can be polished, and that's due to the hardness. However, gold can be polished (it can be done in 24K but more normally done in ...
Lange vs Patek finishing
At the very least, it is highly debatable if not frankly false that the Patek finish exceeds that of Lange. Maybe you could say they are close ..but the custom engrabed balance cock and the chatons. There really is nothing comparable from Patek at anythin...
Imran you don’t say that much but when you do we should all listen.
Beautifully articulated as usual. Your love for Patek and all Watches is infectious. If only we could make our livings out of this great obsession of ours. M.
Thank you for this post
So next time I encountered another PP "hater", I'll just showed them this post.
When you're ready to step-up from Pateks....
F.P.Journe. There are also many independents that truly do exceptional work. The mess of decoration on current Pateks is not uniform nor seems 'organized'. Also seems Patek is using larger bits to decorate movement, and using fewer / larger bridges to cut...
To quote directly from the great man Msr Journe
Philippe Dufour told me [Francois-Paul Journe] just the other day that my finishing quality is now good enough (laughter). I can do even better, but my production cost may increase by 3 times. I have no intention to make my collectors pay through their no...
Thanks Imran for the post and laying out your observations. Our common passion in watches, especially Patek given its high status price, is quite a...
personal topic. As we participate in this forum, we should stay as objective and courteous as possible although our thoughts are personal and subject to our biases due to backgrounds and cultures. As long as we communicate in a friendly manner, I am happy...
may I can ask
-"So visually the anglage is lost partly to the plating, but also do you want anglage for the sake of anglage? Its purpose is not be just aesthetically pleasing, but to prevent wear over time." do we talk about the anglage on the dridges and plates ?If so...
I would like some more challenging inside and outside angles
In a movement to show that PP aren't afraid to spend time on this finish versus the easier rounded bridges
Excellent and important post!
We can all disagree, but Internet can bring the worst in people and exaggerate certain things to an extreme - as Miranda and other people pointed out in this thread Patek provides unmatched 'complete package' from a product standpoint, heritage/history, v...
Great post
agree patek finishing, attention to detail, etc. Nothing is better. I thing the vintage pieces stand out because they feel like more labors of love than the modern pieces. They just feel, and look, special. In a time when almost all males wore timepieces....
I’ve been saying the same thing here for years.
I’m lucky to experience all “challengers” with personal ownership, VC, Lange, JLC, and as pointed out none provide the whole package. Maybe some have more contemporary designs, or more colorful appearance, but when it comes to traditional watchmaking, Pat...
Great question!
I personally buy a brand, not just a particular watch. I tend to be captured by the totally of the brand such as costumer care, service time and quality, product reliability over long wearing time, design, artisanal expression specially at this price poin...
would u qualify
what u just said as one person's opinion or facts? sounded to me like u have something against Richemont 😅
Absolutely! This is just my opinion based on owning both brands.
However I don’t have anything against Richemont other than all brands they own seem to sink like a submarine.🤷🏻♂️
really?!
I recalled reading somewhere that Cartier has been selling tons of watches. oh, my bad, the mass produced are not real watches to the horological snobs.
Your coffee was really strong this morning;)
If that’s your belief, more power to you. But it wasn’t Patek who bought back 40% of their stock and destroy it, let me help you it was Richemont and while I’m not Nostradamus, I’ll see it happening again, in the current and upcoming economic downturn. BT...
Thank you for your reasoning
I bought only Patek but kind of regret not to go with Lange. Most people i see and really respect wear Lange, not Patek. However, your argument is well founded, even if i still would mostly buy Lange at this point for many reasons..
Absolutely, why not?
I’m wasn’t saying that Lange is bad, under any circumstances, or avoid buying, it off course has its merits, what I’m saying is that when comparisons are made one should be objective regardless of where his/her heart pulls! Most “collectors” just copy/pas...
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