Patek Philippe

But you can clearly see the photo I put in at the top page, a photo that belongs to W220 already has chatter marks. And this is a Geneva Seal movement. I can assure you that the new Patek Philippe Seal movements have the same chatter marks. And they are neither worse nor better than the ones in W220's Geneva Seal movement photo.

Your post said 1990s in your original post. Now you're changing the timeline! But okay, fair question. The Patek Philippe 240 caliber debuted back in the late 1970s (around 1977, and funny thing, the movements didn't really wind well back then, even now they still don't wind perfectly). In my eyes the earlier versions look about the same or slightly less beautiful. BUT NOTE, I said less BEAUTIFUL, I didn't say LESS DECORATED. There were some minor aesthetic differences in how they printed the letters, etc. And I find the more recent 240 calibers to be better looking. I can't say with certainty however, as I don't possess an apples to apples comparison between a late 1970s and a modern 2000s 240 caliber photos done by the same camera, same day, same lighting conditions, and magnification. But if you asked me if the earliest ones had better anglage than the modern one... I'd be tempted to make an assumption - YES, the older ones are likely to be better. But! This is just a guess. As I could be (like everyone else here) just tainted into thinking that things in the past were done better than they are done today. But - I would remind myself, not until having those exact apple to apple comparisons, can one be absolutely certain! We may have impressions and assumptions. And our impressions are probably right 60-90% of the time. But I would need to confirm it before I could say definitively. It's a fair question. I just don't know if I have a definitive answer.

my understanding regarding the winding is that it is an issue with all micro rotor movements winding less efficiently compared to full rotor movements and not an issue with 240 specifically

The 240 calibers don't wind perfectly.  Even ones sold today are not consistent- they have their good days and they have their bad days.  But this is not unique to the 240 caliber.  Overall, amongst micro rotors, the 240 caliber is actually one of the better performing ones in my experienced.  

We're starting to become on a witch hunt to identify how the big brands on the top cut corners, and I'm trying to get away from this witch-hunt mentality. And I think that's not fair - because in a witch hunt we always find a witch - even if there isn't one.
Here isn't a "quality" change. You asked for "quality... changed for the worse." But here is a situation where there has been a chance made for probably economic reasons. But it doesn't affect the quality of a Patek Philippe watch negatively.
BUT! To answer your question, I'll give you one opinion. Yes, Patek Philippe has changed their movements in a way that will require less finishing steps. There are almost no internal angles on the movements now. Those sharp internal angles require a human touch to get the anglage polished. The tool that they use (which looks like a dentist's drill) doesn't really fit into sharp corners. So... Yes. The new movements have an architecture that require less movement finishing steps. Is that a lower quality movement? Not really. It's just a more "economical" movement.
But identifying these things doesn't help anyone. If you didn't notice it, you wouldn't know it. If you didn't know it, it wouldn't bother you. From a performance standpoint, the watch will run just as accurately as a watch with more or less movement finishing. The finishing itself is also not of a lower quality. There's just less of it. So same quality of Swiss chocolate. Just a slightly easier manufacturing method of making that Swiss chocolate, the mold has a pattern that has been modified to make it easier to release from the machine. And you definitely won't notice a difference in smell, snap, performance, taste - just a slightly different look.

You said, "Patek Philippe quality overall can be argued has changed for the worse. BUT, it's definitely not for the reasons mentioned by any of the posters above." And I was asking to what you were referring in that statement. Thank you for explaining.

And totally understand that you're not making any complaints! It was a fair question, which is why I answered it. It's just this whole thread started from an incorrect assumption that specifically said anglage has worsened from the 1990s and when that argument didn't stick, it has lead to the question about corner cutting. I find this whole thread to be a witch-hunt, where accusations are made (not by you, Blau), based off of little knowledge or fact. And when the accused witches were proved to not be guilty of the accused crimes, we're still wondering what kind of shortcuts the accused have taken. Fair enough - since I brought it up that the accused did take some shortcuts. I guess I'd be a terrible defense attorney for a witch!

when I was at Nike, there was a process called design for manufacturing. This is when the designer's (an industrial designer/artist) drawings and specifications get modified by an industrial engineer (an engineer) to make shoes easier to manufacture in an assembly line at the factory. usually there were arguments between the designer and engineer and occasionally the designers would stomp out, slam the door, screaming, "You ruined my beautiful shoe!!!!"

I've heard from car designers who told me about this...  They were the designer of the beautiful parts; but then the engineers had to make the car meet global requirements, then the car needs to be easily assembled and more cut lines get drawn, then the car needs to be made so it's repairable after a crash, and maintainable and repairable for general maintenance...  Lots of adjustments necessary!  Patek Philippe does have a lot of targets whenever they have a new movement.  And honestly, Patek Philippe stays relatively quite pure to that original concept!  Overall quality has not gotten significantly worse in the past 30 years.  And I would argue in some ways it has improved.  Some of Patek Philippe's best watches have been made in the past 15 years or so in my opinion.  I can't wear those million-dollar 6300s, plus the Grand Master Chime is the size of a small hockey puck.  So I'll pass.  But watches like the 5270, 5970, 5960, all of the WorldTimes, and even the simple watches are all wonderful and really enjoyable pieces that are well made.  Even a normal or entry-level Patek Philippe is a wonderful watch to behold.  Nothing to sneeze at.  Some people don't even like the look of all those complications, some people just want simple, clean, manual wind, hours, minutes, and seconds displayed.  Not everyone wants a 3-subdial registers watch.  

i have read that german silver is delicate and can discolor with finger oils and is softer. thats why lange watchmakers wear those little finger glove things. but i never connected that it makes lange movements easier to finish. does it affect movement durability or reliability? i also have this question with journe movements that are made from 18k, does that make journe movements less durable and reliable?

The main technical reason why companies use brass, German silver, or 18K gold is one reason and one reason only.  Machinability; all these materials are machinable using modern CNC tools.  And Secondly, these materials are not magnetic.  Meaning these materials are not affected by magnetic fields and cannot become induced to have their own magnetic field.  Thus, to choose among any of these materials is just preference and style of the manufacturer.  

I say this not to besmirch any company's reputation but merely to add another anecdotal point which may be associated with an overall decline in quality.

We have: 1.increase in production 12-fold 2.move from independent standard geneva seal to patek seal 3.changes in movements allowing for changes overall to how these movements are assembled and, perhaps therefore, finished.

With respect to all involved and our esteemed moderators, I make no firm assertion about Patek, but as a watch lover, I would be delighted to know more and understand better.

I will say, the new in-house chronographs are meant to be more precise, more accurate, easier to maintain/repair, and easier to assemble. An overall improvement supposedly. Also, the people who owned Lemania movements sometimes didn't use them everyday as these were earlier collectors who generally have been collecting longer and thus have more watches. Whereas people with the newer Patek-in-house movements seem to use them more often as they are more recent collectors and have slightly fewer watches to rotate amongst. So could be a "bad" statistical sample.

I'd say I've seen several annual calendars suffer problems in the first year of ownership. Date change doesn't work properly. Funny thing, the date change will work correctly if you advance the time by the crown, but it won't work if the watch is on a winder! Something about the crown movement is different than the natural winder movement. I've seen this several times and I would guess a significant percentage, possibly as high as 1/6 or 1/7 (around 15%) of all annual calendars with the 324 base movement (5146, 5396, and similar movement models) probably have this problem for a year or two years. I've also seen two or three 5960s with this problem, although they were earlier 5960s.

...buy whatever PP watch I like, simple or complicated. Ship it to someone like Rexhep or Dufour and have them tear it down, re-finish it, and put it together again. It would make a $100k watch cost $200k or $300k but it would be worth it : )

sure I'd a De Bethune or maybe a Roger Smith

...so yes, just buying one would be the right move. I'm talking about things like a vintage 3940 or the like. Of course, one would have to be very wealthy because it would be a rather silly thing to do : )

Here is a sillier one that I am planning to someday do: Take a watch I like. Such as the Rolex 1908 and have a watchmaker I know give the movement some hand finishing. Just something I'll enjoy, obviously silly. Will be fun someday in the next 10 years or so.

He is more of skeletonized and guillocher though

If we think from their perspective... Why would they want to better someone else's work and not have any credit - the name on the dial isn't going to change to their name. Still - I get where you're coming from. It's not a bad pipe dream!

I don't know neither of them well enough to say if this would or would not work. Dufour and I haven't communicated very much. And Rexhep and I have only met a few times but I've only really spoken to him over one luncheon. But if they're gentlemen, they'd think twice about taking this check. A gentleman artist is not normally interested in money, and they're interested in creating. The watch community have labeled these two as true artists. You could be right, but a true artist wants to sign their work. They can't sign the watch you propose since the movement is clearly not theirs. But... Who knows, maybe they might like the idea. Who knows...

for your series of illuminating posts in this thread

It means a lot!

Love the idea, tho would skip PP and go right to the very best watchmakers.