Patek Philippe

Sounds like an elaborate smoke screen, or a "scented smoke" but nevertheless still smoke.

Are you going through authorized dealers? The stores on New Bond Street are supposed to be reputable. But nevertheless, they're not above anything and if left to their own devices god knows what they would do.

I'm sure a capable printing house would be able to forge the Patek Philippe Certificate of Origin. Doesn't look particularly difficult to me, then again, I'm not in the printing business.

I would ask for my money back on the 5134G (if possible) and would avoid doing business with the store in the future, or be very wary if I must.

Careful out there my friend. It's a bold new world.

Can't agree more. With the advance in technology, everything can be forged. College graduation certificates, passports, watch case, serial numbers, gold seals inside watch cases (I have seen this in flesh - a 18k Cartier white gold Baignoire with bracelet, I was told only the movement and the box are original, the case, the bracelet, the zeals and number? No) ..., you name it.

That said, It's not uncommon to see "open" Patek certificates going around in the secondary market, especially for those references produced before the late 90s. When I bought my first Patek back in 1997, the AD suggested that they leave the paper not dated, and in case there's any problem with the watch, they could extend the warranty period for me. Don't really know this can be encouraged. Not quite moral, but it's a "service" to their customers. So, the Certificate of Origin in my vault is still with any date, but it does have the AD's company chop.  

However, I think we should all be careful when buying newer models. As all the community members here know, Patek has been very careful in controlling flipping of their watches (through controlling those loyal ADs), starting with the period when 3712 was launched, so there should not be, in theory, many open papers for recent models in circulation.

There are numerous watch shows and jewel shows in Hong Kong, where I reside. So, I buy only the seller, not the watch, and I believe I won't have the luck to get any deals that are too good to be true. I never won a lottery anyway.

Francis

 

   

 

 

 

 

 

 

Buy the seller. Not the watch.

Truly superb advice.

... but mostly no name, very seldom no date.

And for more recent models (especially the ones still in production), it is very difficult to find watches in the secondary market with open papers (no name, no date).

If you knew how to look, Patek uses numerical codes to indicate the date of when a Certificate of Origin was printed - not just when the watch was sold.  That needs to be consistent with the date of sale as well as the date of manufacture.  Cross-referencing that to when a watch was in production (assuming it is discontinued) helps root out forged papers.

But if you purchase anything I'd make sure I have someone from Patek or an AD take a second look at the paperwork and the timepiece to make sure everything is OK.  Can't be too careful.

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with its stamp. But there's no name and date. It's a common practice in the not distant past as collectors usually request the AD to leave them out for obvious reasons. I have a collector friend who will only buy if his name is left out, so is the date preferably. He doesn't want the next owner to know who the previous owner was is the main reason doing so. 

figure. It's like one of the shops I know here sell many with only Extract papers and sometimes I wonder why people loose important things that way?

"He doesn't want the next owner to know who the previous owner was is the main reason doing so."

sellers would sell their watches this way, at least those I know.

I purchased a high end watch thru someone who is well known in this community.  He was selling it on behalf of someone he knew who wished to remain anonymous.  The condition for sales was the owners name would be removed (crossed out or cut out) from the certificate.  I agreed and the deal was closed.  But then, I was 110% confident everything was genuine.

Not wanted to get off topic but curious about this issue of anonymity.  I have sold several watches over the years that had my name on the COO and never thought twice about it. We sell cars and houses with our names on the registration and deed (some perhaps even less expensive than our watches!) and I don't think most would lose sleep over it.   Why the privacy concern over having your name on the watch certificate and known to the new owner?

It had long been my understanding that 'open papers' were more often than not the result of a grey market sale with most AD insisting on filling these out at the time of purchase, although admittedly I had never specifically asked to have this omitted.  Would purchasing new from an AD without him filling in the paperwork cause any problems should you require any warrantee service?

I guess I've always been leery of open papers for the above reasons, but I'm eager to learn from this forum and very curious to see how the majority feel about this.  Not wanting to highjack this thread please accept my apology if this violates forum etiquette.

 

 

Anonymity is important to me. No reason that a future owner should know who I am, and possibly find my home address and target me for a burglary.  Paranoid perhaps, sure, but these are high value items.

I have purchased all my watches new from AD, and I ask they all come with open papers, and my AD conveniently “forgot” to fill in my name….  On a couple of them.

I’ve since had both Philippe Stern and Thierry Stern personally hand-sign my papers, and they didn’t seem to care less when I gave them the open papers to autograph.  This was around 5 or 6 or so years back, and I think the practice may be stricter today.

(removed my AD's name in the cert)

 

Honestly, I wouldn´t even think about after your story. Hard to believe for a German Purist

Good luck!!!

Oliver

anybody (individual, second hand dealer, or even an authorized dealer) should understand there is some level of risk when making a purchase of this nature.

I understand a lot of things like tags, plastic sleeves, etc.could probably be easily replicated to fool almost anyone, but when I would take a trade-in, I always sent the watch in for service before it was offered for sale and left it sealed so the client could be assured it had been taken care of properly and eliminating any risk.

Of course, many dealers or individuals may not want to spend the money or the time to have it serviced prior to placing it for sale and leave that for the purchaser. If so, I would attempt negotiate a price adjustment or at least remind him of your last experience..

With respect to the certificate of origin, there are a lot of reasons they are blank .... maybe not to Patek's liking but do exist. It used to be quite easy for dealers to get a new COA if necessary but no more. For example, if  a dealer sells a watch as a gift with the COA filled out and it comes back for exchange, the watch must be sent back along with the paperwork. The watch would have to be evaluated to ensure it could be sold as new again and then the new COA would be issued. Takes a lot of time and some money to follow those guidelines and the easy way to eliminate it was to just leave it blank. Even the policies with the best intentions can result in reasons to bypass them.

Sorry for what happened to you. I think I'm in trouble as well because I have recently purchased a watch from them. In addition, some details seem so suspicious to me now..... Shall I stay with AD next time???

i live not far from bond st, happy to check out any pieces you might be looking at

I can tell you that anything that can be printed can be forged, altered or manipulated.

However, for a 3940 first series...? My lust for it may cloud my mind in making a sound judgement.

Aloha, my friend,

Bob