Jaeger-LeCoultre

Nicolas This message has been edited by amanico on 2014-06-04 10:49:44 This message has been edited by amanico on 2014-06-07 13:21:46

I don't get a lot of parking tickets.  Haven't gotten any for the past twelve months.  Knock on wood.  But I'm always in fear of getting them.  

This is a very smart idea, I must say, and a lovely Watch, too.

Thanks for your feedback, my friend.

Nicolas.

.. I bookmarked this post already, goes to my " alltimes"..

[I will come back later , maybe tomorrow or so, with 1 or 2 humble pics..]

Thanks so much, for this magnificent share - nice, funny and pretty cool, as well !


Best, my friend,
hs

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Love this watch! It's a Memovox, it's a Jubilé watch and it's beautiful - what's not to love! This message has been edited by blomman on 2014-06-04 14:24:09

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You should do you 'reviews' with due diligence, the entire chapter about the E858 is plain non-sence, picturing a franken watch. Congratulations.
It should read E856, same dial as ref 3161, 3 piece screw back case.

Here a Gübelin retailed E856 IpsoVox still signed Memovox on back:




The thing about unsigned crowns is a non proven rumor, created by a false prophet, plain and simple.

Yours respectfully

advocatus diaboli

AFAIK, non-signed crowns are the norm in 1958. The JL logo was introduced in literature around that time, and crowns were signed on most models released only afterwards.
For example E853 was born with non-signed crowns in 1957, and so were the 3159, 3160 and 3161 in 1958.
You might call it a rumor, but to me there is empirical evidence that there was a transition to models with signed crowns introduced at about the release of the case serial number 760,000  (+/- 10,000), and therefore the E855, E856 / E858 and later E's have signed crowns.

 

With regards to the E858 pictured above, I highly doubt it is franken. It is mine, part of a collection of 5 858, including 2 parkings, of which one Gübelin, and I think I can tell a franken apart, especially given the very specific size of the alarm dial on that reference.

 

In my book, there are 3 correct P references: 3161 / E856 / E858, the latter with both Jaeger LeCoultre and Gübelin versions.

 

 

Now, back to ref 3161, Nicolas has shown some steel and yellow gold. How about some Pink ?

The signed vs. unsigned thing is not correct when taking into account at least 2 Parkings within the a VERY close (aka in between) range of  case/mvmt serials, compared to others without signed crowns. The claim is a claim not a fact. Sorry.
The E858 is nowhere pictured in a vintage catalog as a Parking, to my knowledge at least, so two watches are not a proof in my understanding, more likely I find the idea those where pocketwatch dials. But ok, when legit as a wristwatch without a unique case reference, than I can build up a lovely 18k YG E858 with my spare NOS Parking disk. Haha. Oh no I can't, the disk has the right small diameter but a diamond style solid marker...
Nice PG, by the way.

acvocatus diaboli

And yes, the E 856 also had a Parking dial.

Here, yours, from the photo session we had in 2010:

Best,

Nicolas

is a frankenwatch.  

And as for the unsigned crowns, this  has nothing to see with a prophet's point of view, it is just a fact.

But if criticizing my reviews with such a virulence serves you as a therapy, it is fine for me. 

All the best,

Nicolas

Just 10 cases (serial number-wise) away from your shown ref. 3161 - an example with signed crowns is known, as a couple of others as well, but still claiming this 'unsigned' bs a 'fact'. Sure mate. ;-)

As for the E858 vs. E 856 this 1965 catalog page speaks for itself:




Sidenote: there have been times when spare disks were widely available via ebay, this indeed used to be the reason why collectors avoided the highly questionable Parking and Worldtime Memovoxes who could not be identified as true references 3060, 3161 and E856.

I admit that there are for sure still some secrets about unidentified references, but from a historic point of view, one needs to see enough watches in real and vintage catalog material to be certain those are legit products.

Cordially yours

advocatus diaboli

I am at work in London, won't enter into an argument, but will just share a picture, thanks to Marv

 

 

 

… this takes us directly into our philosophy class: What can we know?

;-)

So let us start with logical reasoning:

Clavi’s point could be: As there was a Gübelin Ipsovox Parking E858 manufactured by JLC, there also must have been a JLC Memovox Parking E858.

This could be the conclusion of a valid syllogism – but as logical argumets work with generalization, it will only be valid if there is a corresponding major premise which contains a general term. This premise would read as follows:

All Memovox models/special dial variants that were sold under the Gübelin label as Ipsovoxes, were also sold by JLC under their own label.

Thus it makes a valid argument. But is it true?

For a valid argument that is also true both premises have to be true, i.e. the aforementioned premise and Clavi’s premise that there was a Gübelin Ipsovox Parking E858. While we may assume the latter, what do we know about the former? Did Gübelin commission special models that JLC did not sell? Did they do the imprint on their Ipsovoxes themselves?

Food for research!

Have a great Whit weekend – all of you!

Christian

it is usefull to get a limeline established:
Gübelin catalog date, case and movement serial of both Memovoxes. Divergency of observed LeCoutre vs. Jaeger-LeCoultre watches.

Seeing a calalog pictured Gübelin Parking Ipsovox is a great boot, thanks Clavi. And never mind my shot into the dark.

Maybe it would be our moderators job with his excellent heritage contacts, to source dedicated catalog material. With this stuff included it could make a substancial review I assume. JLC still has still to go a long way to reach Pateks heritage habits.

Have a nice weekend

advocatus diaboli

Does it really take us to philosophy? or to good manners, proper language and humility?

May I quote Ilja? "the entire chapter about the E858 is plain non-sence, picturing a franken watch. Congratulations. It should read E856 ...." And which watch is then used as an illustration by Ilja: a Gübelin retailed E856 Parking IpsoVox.

However, despite this very affirmative message and severe judgement, we were given both an example of a Gübelin retailed E858 Parking IpsoVox and a scan of a Gübelin catalog where is E858 is displayed. As I own the catalog, I would like to precise that is was printed in 1966.

It is now clear that Ilja's sarcastic congratulations were uncalled-for and his statement about the E858 Parking being a "non sense" is just ... wrong. End of the story.
 
 
If I step back, I consider that collecting watches is a continuous lesson of humility. Especially with Jaeger Lecoultre.

It took years to find the first strong evidence that dauphine hands were also correct for the Geophysic Chronometer. Recently, I discovered that there had been at least one E875 Memovox in ... white gold.

I don't know if this is a philosophical view, but I like this one: "The more I learn, the more I realize how much I don't know."

Coming back to the subject, I would like to add a minor contribution with my rose gold Parking Memovox as this watch made for the French Market had a very specific elegant case with thiner lugs and (unsigned also original!-) crowns.

About Philosophy, I much prefer yours.

Good to read you again, Marv.

Best,

Nicolas

I don't know much about this watch, except its elegant case was made in France with lyra lugs. It came in very nice condition with its original gold buckle - same marks on the bucke and caseback.

There is one vintage catalog with the exact same model, referenced as 12 R.R. 7, part of the Jubilé collection! Top left hereafter.

Credit : blomman



This watch is the result of a Swiss made movement in a French made case, ...  another illustration of "the alliance of the Swiss technic and the French fineness and taste".

Best!
 

All the others being trusted by a certain Swedish...

Thanks for your answer, Marv.

See you soon?

Nicolas

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1)

 

What can we conclude from the mere fact that there has been a Gübelin cataloge picturing an Ipsovox E858 Parking?

Right: that there has been a Gübelin cataloge picturing an Ipsovox E858 Parking.

Nothing more, nothing less.

Not even that there has been a Gübelin Ipsovox E858 Parking.

Ceci n'est pas une pipe!

 

2)

What can we conclude from the additional fact that there has been a Gübelin Ipsovox E858 Parking - assuming that it is authentic?

Right: that there has been a Gübelin Ipsovox E858 Parking.

 

3)

Can we conclude from these two given facts that JLC themselves issued a E858 Parking, i.e. that Clavi's JLC E858 is authentic?

No.

 

Please do not get me wrong: I am not claiming that Clavi's JLC E858 Parking is not authentic. I am just noting that there has not been presented sufficient evidence (in this thread) that it is.

Marv, what you describe as learning is essentially finding facts that amount to premises needed to draw the right conclusions. I am really interested to know whether these will be found or not.

 

Christian

Diabolicum est per animositatem in errore manere

We missed you here! Please don't be a stranger!

Hey blomman,

I am never far behind

By the way, congratulations for your nomination as GP moderator. This is a promising brand with many past and present marvels to be discovered or highlighted.

I have heard that the market of GP vintage documentation is now bullish! ;-)

Best

Thank you, you should come visit us over at GP some day - I have already uncovered some...

By the way, are JLC still making their basic model alarm wrist watches like the ones you showed in the pictures? All I can find now are second-handed.

There is the Master Memovox, and there were, a few years ago the Memovox Tributes To Deep Sea Alarm and Polaris.

But no Parking...

Best,

Nicolas