cazalea
[Seiko Moderator]
20806
Semantics comes into play too
for example, regarding the JLC Tourbillon you mentioned, I would have preferred you to describe it as relatively inexpensive rather than cheap.
In the same way, when cooking, I prefer to have my wife ask me Could you cook my fish a bit longer rather than exclaim This fish is raw!
Having said that, I know we get an overdose of exposure to fine (and seemingly-fine) watches on PuristSPro, but can there really be enough buyers for all these multi-hundred-thousand-euro machines?
Cazalea
Perception, fallacy and truth
I was having a discussion with a fellow collector, a gentleman who is discerning and educated, about the Cartier Astroregulateur. You can read my detailed explanation of the Astroregulateur here but in essence the movement is designed to address the same ...
A great read SJX
A very interesting essay on perspectives. IMHO brand recognition can be a slow moving ship in any established industry . There are obvious exceptions and these generally cater to a younger and faster moving crowd. Btw, I like Jaeger LeCoultre's "working m...
Thanks emcquillan
I agree that the JLC Master Tourbillon is great for what it is, an affordable tourbillon. It is like the IWC rattrapante vs Patek 5959, same complication but radically different levels of complexity and finish. - SJX
Semantics comes into play too
for example, regarding the JLC Tourbillon you mentioned, I would have preferred you to describe it as relatively inexpensive rather than cheap . In the same way, when cooking, I prefer to have my wife ask me Could you cook my fish a bit longer rather than...
No is the answer.
The fine watchmaking part of cartier will never IMHO get to the point of great public acceptance. How many are willing to buy a flashy watch that don't flash at all? A Porsche does a better job than a cartier tourbilon. Only die hard fans will support it ...
Demand is there
About 1500-2000 watches of the Fine Watchmaking collection are made per year, and they sell at a fairly good pace, better than the Collection Privee Cartier Paris that came before. There are enough buyers. The issue is who are these buyers? Consumers who ...
Hi SJX. This is a great read. My question here and not just specifically for Cartier...
is that, the ones who've never been in the "fine watchmaking" space before... are they forcing it? what's the reason behind pushing the envelope? if it's legitimacy, i think that you can still produce great timepieces worthy of the Cartier mystique withou...
History and legitimacy
Cartier does has a history in the fine watchmaking space. From approximately the twenties to the forties, Cartier made top-end watches, many with complications. Movements were supplied by EWC which in turn obtained ebauches from LeCoultre. The watches of ...
Well if the Jaeger-LeCoultre Master Tourbillon is cheap....
Hi JiaXian, I know that you have not liked it from the start but I do and for good reasons I think, in my very humble opinion. I don't think "cheap" is a word that makes senses with a Master Tourbillon. Well if the Jaeger-LeCoultre Master Tourbillon is ch...
A few things
Hi Jerome, The JLC Master Tourbillon is good value for money, that I grant you. But, 1) The finishing is poor. For example, the anglage is either embossed or diamond cut. Also, the Cotes de Geneve has no glow. 2) There is nothing technically innovative ab...
Well, SJX, I too think you're entitled to your own view, here.
Do you always compare watches which don't play in the same budget? I would be curious to know in what price category is this Cartier, while the JLC is on the 35 000 Euros range. So, for you, a watch which is 3, 5, 7 or 10 less expensive must have the same...
You are misreading my post
either intentionally or not. My original post said that the Master Tourbillon is neither technically sophisticated nor highly finished but it is cheap, i.e. the price is low for a tourbillon. In response to Jerome, I said again: 1. JLC Master tourbillon i...
Ok, I was indeed misreading your point of view.
By the way, do you have more detailled pictures of the movement? Would be very curious to see the level of finish. Bes,t and thanks in advance. Nicolas.
I only have one photo of the back
It is a prototype and not in good condition, neither does it have the final finishing. - SJX...
No we're not misreading
Sorry JiaXian but we're not misreading. Cheap doesnt mean just less expensive! I've looked on the net and here's the kind of definition for cheap I find: cheap (ch p) adj. cheap·er , cheap·est 1. a. Relatively low in cost; inexpensive or comparatively ine...
That was meant for Nicolas
I meant he was misreading my post, not you. When I wrote the JLC was cheap, I meant "Relatively low in cost; inexpensive or comparatively inexpensive" AND "Of poor quality; inferior". Also, I never made the point that the Astroregulateur is well finished,...
Well I don't think they are better finished than a Master Tourbillon
Well I don't think they are better finished than a Master Tourbillon. The finish seems comparable on the pics, for as much as pics can be compared of course, as they can be easily misleading. And of course you can always have a look there: harrytan.sg / D...
Compare anglage for example
The anglage on the tourbillon bridge is uneven at places: While the bevelling on the keyless works of the Cartier skeleton tourbillon is even all around. The Cartier is more expensive, but you are making the point that the JLC is as well finished as the C...
Honestly, SJX, I don't see your point on the difference of quality.
The JLC and the Cartier are not, by far, the most finished Tourbillons, objectively, and from what I see on your pics. The JLC is honest, for its price. But I may be biased... Best, Nicolas.
Just to chip in a bit.....
When I first read SJX's article, it reads to me like he's saying that this Cartier watch is of very high finishing and basically a true fine watch. His mention of the JLC Master Tourbillon did not sound like an 'attack' of that watch, he just simply says ...
Thanks for the summary CL
You said in three paragraphs what I took one article, six photos and 12 responses to say. And while you are right, not everyone needs a Simplicity, I think everyone, at least everyone I know, wants one. Some people even want it on a brown strap. - SJX
Agreed, CL..
I don't expect the Master Tourbillon to be finished like a 250 000 Euros watch, of course, and your observation makes sense, totally. But, and IF I got it well, for the price of this Cartier Tourbillon, and for much less, a GP 3 Gold Bridges like the one ...
The Astroregulateur is NOT the best example of Cartier finishing
I think there is some confusion in the discussion. The Astroregulateur is a fine example of out of the box thinking, innovation and creativity, NOT finishing. There are other Cartier watches with better finishing. Perhaps I wasn't clear in my original pos...
Same idea form Zenith...
Even Zenith G-force is more complicated as it have to compensate the motion on 2 axis. I would like some watch maker to combined cartier and zenith...to design a spherical wrist watch which can wind as rolling ball and show the time on itself....
Similar but different
Zenith's solution puts the balance wheel on one plane at all times; it is always flat like a marine chronometer inside a gimbal box. I find Cartier's solution a bit more elegant, the Zenith seems a little bit overkill. - SJX
the cartiers just glow
as a true layman compared to you guys, i have to say that something as pedestrian as a large case ballon bleu (forgive me if these seems to mass appeal for some) positively glows compared to the jlcs i've seen. amanico and others know that i absolutely lo...
Wise words
Thanks for the wise comment Chris. Buy what you like, regardless of the "expert's" comments on anglage and perlage. Sometimes we get too caught up in the details and forget the bigger picture - do you like the watch? - SJX
i like it but
i too think this one is overpriced since its a competing solution for an already overpriced complication and not that much prettier. nevertheless, you can't really put a price on innovation but i would really love to see some nice and more economy complic...
I've heard that line before
I've heard many people express that same view. But the new Fine Watchmaking range is selling much better than the CPCP. Are those who mourn the demise of the CPCP the same people who were buying them, and are now sadly deprived of access to the CPCP? Perh...
