Jos.
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No need to shout, Thomas...
... remember, it was you who rekindled this discussion not me.
Couple of small things that might sound like nitpicking but since you were picking apart my words with gusto, I feel the need to address them. Firstly, "I can't believe you wrote that" didn't mean to infer you were lying, they were only meant in the same way as the American expression "I can't believe you just said that." And secondly, please don't attach any covert meaning to my changing of the words 'deepset date' into 'small date' - I was only trying to go along as long as possible with your funny Patex Pigueron game. To my credit, I managed to do that almost to the end...
Re the other candidates you came up with, a couple of these are interesting. I agree with you on the gussied up V7750s but they don't apply because (at least as far as I know) nobody dares asking seriously 5-digit prices for those. If they do, then I agree and it is a serious ripoff candidate. In fact, haven't I read somewhere that Hublot's Big Bang chronos contain a shameless V7750 copy? If that's the case we have some serious competition and your AP ROO may be off the hook 
In fact my calling the AP ROO a top ripoff candidate is closely linked to pricing. If AP hadn't pushed ROO prices up in such an artificial and (opinion alert! opinion alert!) intelligence insulting way with endless series of 'limited' colour variations commemorating all and sundry I would not even have started on this.
Which leaves Patek. From what I can see, their new chronograph design is several times more elegant, innovative and usable than the AP ROO's. If problems are a reason to call a high end watch a ripoff then we should not leave out Richard Mille. I have had several problems with one and as I read, so have others. But coming up with innovative new designs is risky and they should be judged on other grounds. Nobody buys a Ferrari because it's more reliable than, say, a Toyota Camry (OK strike that - a Mercedes E240, then).
Finally, 'Beautifully imperfect' is a quote from a very nice public advertising campaign in Singapore that won several prizes. It refers to the fact that we should expect nobody to be perfect, least of all the ones we love, and in fact we should love them because of their imperfections. I was reminded of it because of the endearing way you wrote about the deepset date. (have a look- it's worthwhile: www.youtube.com
)
I've said this before (and I know, you've denied it vehemently) but this issue seems to evoke strong emotions on your side. Your use of caps and of delightfully politically incorrect language ("I don't give a shit") speaks volumes. So again, let me stress that I did not intend to insult anybody personally and there's no need to get all worked up.
So let's agree to disagree and leave it at that.
Yours sincerely,
Jos.
PS Seeing "shit" in your post reminds me of another watch site whose name I shall not mention here, and which apparently finds it necessary to be so dreadfully politically correct that I've actually seen several watches advertised with the description 'ta[word removed]erie dial...
Post Hump Day Headscratcher - your opinion please!
Hi, "Context is everything. Everything is context." Is there a difference between these two statements? 1. "The Patex Pigueron Submersible Travel Timer Big Date is one of the biggest rip offs in the watch industry." 2. "The Patex Pigueron Submersible Trav...
They are fine in a casual expressive environment.
They allow an individual to express his/her honest opinion freely and without fear by also covering his/her a-- at the same time. They allow this and also don't necessarily force the opinion on to others to adopt them as well. In a sense, putting it out t...
Thanks, I agree, IMHO! :-) Related but separate...
Hi, Ping, I thought about leaving this for another headscratcher, but I'm not sure there's enough on the topic to discuss to be the start of another thread. "Context is everything; Everything is context." I am reminded of the "2010 is the start of a new d...
maybe we need a setting for permanent signatures
Cure laziness and pigheadedness all at once! ----------------------------- Sincerely and IMHO, SteveH
We've had problems with signatures in the past
so we won't be reinstating signatures because it opens up Pandora's box for the moderating team. Best, Anthony
Thanks, Steve, all, I will try to respond to each and all follw up posts...
please bear with me, but I do appreciate all responses and comments, thoughts - that's what "open" discussions are for! Thanks! TM
With you 100%, Dr Thomas!
Hello Thomas, Whereas I have just realized from looking at previous posts, I rarely use opening salutations here on PPro, I am a fan, believer and user of such "pleasantries". I gather that my opening salutations are missed here because of my tendancy to ...
Thanks, Nikolaj.
I appreciate your comments, and I agree that the point can be taken overboard too. I'll see what I can do about that Patex Pigueron. It seems it does have its fans... ;-) All the best, TM
i fully agree with you Thomas, the world needs more politeness
i always try, and hope i succeed, in being polite whenever i have a typed conversation, if you can call it a conversation i may not start with, Dear Mr Mao, but i always end with 'best, Graham' or similar. politeness costs nothing and people should take t...
Thanks, Graham. You know...
it's great when one gets to know someone; it definitely helps with context. Knowing that you are an ex-copper (since you have mentioned this publically before, I assume it is okay to share publically) brings to mind an issue that comes up frequently in re...
Best efforts
Dear Fellow PuristS, One of the things that I admire about this site and its members is that in general I think there is a very high level of civility, and politeness not found with same consistency elsewhere. IMHO. IMHO that has a lot to do with the tone...
Thank you, Respo.
I always respect someone who tries to live up to their own standards, which you certainly seem to. Your "guidelines" for conduct are right on, imho. Man, that Patex Pigueron seems to be reallly popular! I just might have to get one! TM
There is at least one …
…amongst our number who takes the view that it is actually almost something of an egotistical presumption to express the views of a neophyte to an audience of cogniscenti , and for that reason eschews the personal pronoun (and derivations thereof) in post...
pplater, you know someone is an important member of the community when...
others look forward to your comments on a given subject, or miss you when you don't post. I always look forward to your words, on whatever subject. You mentioned the use of acronyms - interestingly, I didn't intend this thread to address that, but as I me...
Aw, shucks: from politesse…
… to flattery and back to politesse , all in the one post! Thank you also for the allusion to one of Hollywood’s more persuasive advocates: [The great Mr James Stewart in 'Anatomy of a Murder" - pic from independentcritics dot com] Wholly undeserved, of c...
hope to continue this discussion
somewhere where the winged chariot of other posts don't constantly threaten to push it to the internet oblivion of "page 2"... " This, as you say, TM, is shorthand for specialists; signals to other specialists and insiders which, you imagine, can be (mis)...
The reason I don't like "IMHO"..
Is that it's lazy and clumsy. Yes, I use it sometimes. Sometimes I am lazy and clumsy. It allows a writer to make a strident statement e.g."Xxxxxx Xxxxxx is the biggest cheat in F1" and then retreat behind the initialism "IMHO" as though that softens the ...
Pedantry, curmudgeonliness, and bastardizations
Hi, BDLJ (is this an acronym, pseudonym, "handle" or ...? and what does it say about me to use it slavishly when I know your real name? Or am I respecting your implied desire to maintain a separate identity on the net vs "real life?" ) "It allows a writer...
Communication is changing …
Hi Thomas, I agree with your general comments about the use of salutations and qualifiers. I have commented on this before, but I have noted on the various PuristS channels, as well as other internet sites, that the use of qualifiers such as IMVHO, YMMV, ...
It sure is!!!...
... have you seen the bottom of your posts today??? ;-) Cheers, pplater.
Terrified …
Yes I noticed the links but was too terrified to press on anything. Hopefully we will get an explanation from the ‘techs’, or being a citizen of the 21 st century am I supposed to know what “Delicious”, “Digg”, “Technorati”, “Reddit”, “Stumbleupon”, “Prop...
That is really old hat.
We are just late adopters to the new stuff. You may have noticed everyone from the New York Times to the Washington Post have had +Share on their sites for well over a year. You are right we need to jump in to the 21st.... :)...
The LA Times share -- Digg - Delicious and don't forget Technorati :)
There are more than 30 such shared links we just took a few of the top one. Enjoy. Bill...
"Give a man a fish....
....and he eats for a day. Teach him how to fish and he eats always'. For the Luddites amongst us, Bill, tell us how and when we should be using these new 'thingies'. Cheers, pplater.
I am still experimenting myself
The promise is that it will attract like minded reader due to the way they get ranked. If users are interested it climbs. Obviously our universe is small so we will attract users with high interest. Other things like twitter I still don't quite know how p...
I couldn't agree more, Andrew. and...
"Never in the history of humankind has so much misinformation been owed by so many to so few, so quickly." ;-)
For me, adding IMO or IMHO makes your opinion/statement less imposing
Like, if I said "Brand ABC's watches are ugly", it sounds pretty harsh. That's how I read it. If I were to say 'Brand ABC's watches are ugly IMO", it sounds harsh but more in a subdued tone of voice. I like adding "IMO" sometimes to my written opinions be...
It's not about manners, it's about lawsuits.
If I say "Brand X watches are junk," Brand X may be in a position to sue me and win if it can show that I made a false statement about its watches. If I say "In my opinion Brand X watches are junk," Brand X should not be in a position to sue me and win be...
I understand where you are coming from, MKVC, but personally
for myself only, I really try to not be so cynical. Afterall, down that path are doctors who keep patients sick to continue their revenue stream; mechanics that don't fix your car properly (but undetectably) so they can keep billing you for work; and ulti...
Hi Thomas, in general, opinions are based on facts
Pleasantries do help to maintain decency in civilized comminucation but they do not in any way enhance the truthfulness of an opinion. In general, an opinion which is based on true fact/s is a correct opinion. Otherwise, it is an incorrect / wrong / taint...
agreed, and specifically limited to the issues you raise, there are
important secondary effects of communications...artifacts of the communication process itself, irregardless of the "truth" factor of the underlying points. Like my comments about the demeanor of LEO's (Law Enforcement Officers) and other positions of auth...
Another viewpoint, and an illustration
Thomas, Is it not possible to be civil, to separate fact from opinion, and to engage in polite discourse without following precisely the conventions of the handwritten letter with respect to greetings and salutations and without adopting acronyms? I shoul...
"politeness" and civility is not binary; I personally hate slavish devotion and dogma
Hi, Park, "I personally hate slavish devotion to, and dogma about, anything." "I hate slavish devotion to, and dogma about, anything." "Slavish devotion to, and dogma about, anything is bad/stupid/idiotic/dangerous." I agree that "tone" and intention are ...
Dear Dr. Mao
great headscratcher as usual but I beg to differ on one point and I must say it as polite as I can The Evolutionary biology is a FACT. and this one is without MHO or WMHO On politeness and salutations I tend to agree being polite will not hurt you being i...
Thanks, Damian. Now about Evolutionary Biology...
I know a few Creationists who beg to differ, but that's another thread, on another forum...
:0) couldn't agree more ...
with just one little twist Creationism is not a science Evo. Bio. is Sincerely Damian This message has been edited by Ares501 on 2010-02-09 05:34:12
Internet communication can be devoid of nuance . . .
. . . so yes, I feel qualifiers are both necessary and good form . . . cordially, Art
Thanks, Art, I agree.
And from some of the other posts, it seems more than a few agree. Cheers, TM
Tone...
I think the general question raised is not so much the proper use of qualifiers (IMHO, IIRC, etc) but rather communicating clearly, concisely, and most importantly, using the proper tone. What is the proper tone? Persuasive when trying to convince, open w...
Facts are elusive, opinions are everywhere; no vaccination helps this
Speaking as a speech teacher, publisher and professional editor, only. IMHO, as well. Not as a physician. Whether it be vaccinations vs autism or evolution vs creationism or even column wheel vs lever we ought to temper our self-expression to allow for th...
oh, my...
Mike, "we ought to temper our self-expression to allow for the possibility that we might be wrong." Whoa, what a concept! I could not possibly agree more. Thanks, TM
This is a truly a stupid thread!
That was neither opinion nor fact. -- it was a lie! I just couldn't resist! Thomas, some folks a rude, some folks simply don't communicate well, and others are indifferent. Me, I'm old school, and like you, I prefer good manners. I also understand and acc...
What a provocative subject line!
Ya almost got me, but in our case, I had the benefit and pleasure of knowing you in person. Thanks for your comments! TM
modulation and contextualization says a lot about the speaker
Hi Thomas, There have been a lot of interesting points and fascinating sidebars raised in this thread. I generally prefer to contextualize my statements as much as it's practical to do so and I find value in others doing so as well. At work in particular,...
Ah, you've opened yet another intriguing tributary from the main stream of this thread.
Hi, John, The credibility of the other party - I've frequently seen parties in a negotiation where someone tries to negotiate by starting with the absurd. "How much would you like to pay?" (for a $15,000 watch) "$1000" End of discussion, the first offer i...
I may not always formulate my correspondence...
...in a traditional format with salutation and closing, but I always try to be cordial and express when something is my opinion, as opposed to stating it as fact. I don't know if I always succeed in my endeavors, but following the golden rule to do unto o...
Too often
by using those "nice" words like dear, hi etc become "plain" to the receiver, once in a while use it I would think people will feel some "spice" as a humble self I do not often use all this in sms and email in normal daily communication to those we have k...
I agree with you...
Skip to the bottom "FINAL NOTE" area if you want to avoid reading all of my opinions and skip to the main idea... Saying "IMHO" and "I think" is almost always unnecessary and redundant. I agree with you that people do it for reasons of being polite. Howev...
Post Scripts...
P.S. Another one of my pet peeves; I don't like it when people ask their restaurant server "Can I have the fish?" I always prefer to say, "I'll have the fish" or "I would like..." or "I'll take the fish." P.P.S. I do know I sound like I have Aspergers or ...
My humble opinion....
Dear Dr ThomasM What a great topic to bring up here on the forum I would have commented earlier, but actually thought that there were already so many great comments from so many clever PP members that I almost stayed away. Too much just to add a small mic...
Dear Thomas...
First of all, my apologies for not noticing this post earlier. I have a habit of jumping in and out of HM in a non-systematic way and therefore some posts catch my attention sooner, some later, and some not at all. Reason for the apology is the strong sus...
Thanks for your reply in this post, Jos.
Hi, Jos, 1. "The Audemars Piguet Royal Oak Offshore is one of the biggest rip offs in the watch industry." 2. "The Audemars Piguet Royal Oak Offshore is a strong candidate for biggest rip off in the watch industry." Indeed there is a difference in those t...
That last judgment is a very dubious one, Thomas, ...
... and I wonder what you base it on. The way I value others' opinions is based on their perceived authority in the matter. Since I acknowledge you as an authority on haute horology, I'd say I value your opinions higher than mine. Mind you, valuing your o...
It's really quite simple, Jos.
Hi, Jos, If I disagree with someone else's opinion, and my opinion is a negative one, I tend to keep my negative opinion to myself, unless I am offended by the egregiousness of the "offense." Obviously you feel that strongly about the Offshore, and all th...
No need to shout, Thomas...
... remember, it was you who rekindled this discussion not me. Couple of small things that might sound like nitpicking but since you were picking apart my words with gusto, I feel the need to address them. Firstly, "I can't believe you wrote that" didn't ...
Political incorrectness is in the eye of the beholder.
Dear Jos, ALL CAPS is shouting by general internet convention. For me, it is reiterating a point that is obviously bouncing off closed ears in our case (mixing metaphors.) I find it as offensive to pretend to disingenuously effete euphemisms (sh!t instead...