SuitbertW
2411
Dear Bernard,
just a few words - I don't "challenge" Mr. Papi and if I ever get the chance I'd be curious to hear his take about a more specific question in that matter.
To my personal experience a fillister type screw might be easier to be polished to a certain degree - and a flat head might be harder
to polish in the first step, as it easier shows the imperfections an tiny scratches.
If done to a higher degree of finish - personally I've found it easier to get, let's say 5 matching flat head screws to a good level compared
to the same number of rounded head screws. Supposed one tries to achieve an equally good finish.
If that's the "challenging" you mean - I'd call it more a minor disagreement - but I'd not be surprised if in fact there isn't at all .
Besides that, the only thing Mr. Papi indeed says about Fillister head screws "they're uncommon in upscale horology " nowadays....and in another place he
admits they're "esthetically pleasing" - .that doesn't sound negative in the way you do suggest? Another quote he groups them together with the flat head screws as
the ones to use...?
Throwing extremely cheap unfinished screws in the same basket - and dismissing fillister head screws for the reason "they could confuse consumers" , sorry Bernard......:-(
BTW, the "slipping screw dirver" - there you're confusing me a bit. In high horology, or let's say in good watchmaking - a damaged screw is
replaced or reworked/polished - if on the outer circumgerence or the entire head - I don't see the difference. And under normal circumstances, the issue is either the bridge/plate is damaged due to the "slip" or the slot is "lipped" - which indeed is more easy with non bevelled slots - but the same when the slot is acurately finished.
Both surface geometries do have their difficulties, but IMHO there's little difference, if at all when done to the same degree.
BTW, if I'm not mistaken - you're also quoting my words incorrectly.
Best regards
Suitbert
Why so expensive? This wristwatch question is asked, but what about a chair?
Of course, to a minority, they know chairs made of wood, lacquer and leather will out cost most 99% of any watch. Or even just canvass. But we are here...for chairs..google "Dragon Chair auction 2009". Not only the spur of pricing of Ellen Grey's chair, w...
Hmm National Day here, brand calls me.
OK. Forgiven as it was a call from another timezone and they said rounded screws for work horse models. Flat as far as possible for superior and higher placed models. They agreed with me that a good way is to look at the screws. I too agree. The internet ...
Remarkable Mr Cheong
Fantastic post.....I always wonder what untrained eyes look at when holding a loupe and gazing at a display case back..... I always want to shout"What the hell are you looking for?"......I believe only a few could give me a clear answer.... Back to my col...
Nick, I have only barely scratched the surface.
The choices of cheese head and stepped and champher head are chapters if you wish, I can tell you more.
Would you be so kind to open those chapters??
Maybe with some reference pics.....this could be a very interesting reference thread... Thank you in advance. Mo
Thank you, it means alot to me.
You know. Being a Singaporean, I am proud our little nation is well known in the watch industry. Singaporeans must know watches as if they know their chicken rice. We need also an emphasis on intent and philosophy. Why? Because many honest watchmakers use...
look..the Omega Speedmaster CoAxial screws
Passed. These are highly sophisticated numeric cutting and numeric multiple lathes. They are machine cut, chemically polished. Then machine polished again. Result: previously $4,000....now $12,000. Of course a few other details too, like the ceramic case....
Definitely an indicator of finishing on a watch..
a high end or self called so...... I will try to post some of mine soon.... Mo
Yes. Omega is a pet brand of mine..I admit I love them.
The makers have been always , like UN and Grand Seiko, always tried to make watches affordable. If I could find a person who wishes to sell his used Omega central tourbillon, I will seriously want to buy it.
There is plenty to ask your retailer about the hundred or so screws
In an average watch, almost 100 screws are employed. Ask about the threading procedure, you are paying a lot of money. Ask if standard pitch, thin pitch have been used to fasten the plates you are examining and why. High end watches don't use roller/runne...
Seizo Sugawara in Paris
Eillen Gray made good friends with this man, who was a purists, before the net...chuckles. He was an expert in lacquer. Her chair, although I have touched it...I will say, it is unlikely to have employed any scews, but tendon and mortice joints are my gue...
Thank you, Bernard.
I always enjoy the knowledge and passion of your posts. Care and craftsmanship can be seen in both the handfinished screw and the Speedmaster screw, all CNC made. I think that is what is interesting about horology today, the melding of handcraft and machi...
It is my purpose to make sure that watchmaking rises above 2 things
The furniture collecting guys. and the cars...the cars I can understand why so expensive. But if we do not tell and share the word with people, watches may just stay here. I wish that all the people with money and without, will shift about 25% towards us,...
Thanks! Here is a picture of an accident, for everyone to learn from
This is an accidental mistake of the person applying pressure on the screw driver. As he/she completed the process of tightening, he/she withdrew the screw driver slightly too fast, while pressure was still turning the tool, hence you see the slight uneve...
I'm sure you know, but look into vintage pocket watches before 1950s...
there, in the models made between 1860s to 1930s... you'll see the zenith of finishing..... each screw hand finished, each slot perfected, why? because labor was cheap, because it was segmented to experts in each part of the watch, and you had amazing com...
Recently, 2009, I was shown this at Basel. This should not happen.
This pic shows a fully developed and sold watch...as high horology. Since then, they have made corrections. But look, you have a double swan and then with these screws??? I am happy to say, all of these minute compromises have been rectified. People pay g...
;) I like that picture...
It is so true...!! Thanks again for your great post, please, keep'm coming if you find the time to write them! i hope you're having a good weekend, S
Bernard I think that we could use more essays on how to....
Identify details that indicate a superior product.
Bernard, a very interesting post from you.
Do you think Patek or Lange uses same quality of screws on all their watches regardless the price/value of them? Or do you have any obvious examples? From my personal experience through my collection, I tend to think that the lower value watch has inferio...
During 2 seperate admins...after Blumlein. Yes.
From my experience, all the mainstream, ground winning pieces are Lange 1 and Datographs made during Blumlein's reign. I , humbly am thinking, that he wisely assigned all work on these and those higher, to the best guys. Below, the others had work done, f...
Good question!
I am curious as well, perhaps someone can use a loupe to check the screws say, in a grand complication and compare it to a Aquanaut or Nautilus.
Don't forfet to date the watch...I have examples of both
from 1980s. A perpetual chrono and a several nautilus and many 5059 derivatives. But if someone can shoot better, and surely there is...
Well....
I used a loupe to check 5970 and 5015, they all had flathead screws, no round ones that I can see of, but the screw holes on the 5015, although bevelled, was not done as nicely as they were on the 5970, at least in my particular case.
Great insights, Doc!
Thanks for opening up this chapter. Of course, it all boils down to the tiny little details; details that people don't usually bother to check out. That is dedication, and it shows the integrity and passion that goes towards watchmaking. I am glad that yo...
The hororlogical passion...
I really don't know if I agree or disagree..... 1. This is a watch site - the knowledge & in sight is amazing. 2. Like most objects, this is one of passion - in actual hindsight, for many, who haven't caught the bug, its ridiculous. 3. But for those w...
It does help the train of thought and I agree.
I bought very few watches until my kids completed their studies, and I had to drive a much cheaper car.
Excellent post!
A couple of your earlier posts rubbed people off the wrong way but I always thought that was never your intentions, you were just gaga over GF. Keep these kinds of technical articles coming, I am sure a lot of us learned a lot and are interested in knowin...
i examined the screws on lange
I checked all the screws using a 10x loupe on Datograph Perpetual and can confirm that all the screws heads are flat, beautifully polished and the slots bevelled. I did not find a single round headed screw. So Bernard I am not sure as to which model that ...
the Roundheads vs. the Flatheads
I too discovered round-headed screws in the same position of my double swan necked PanoInverse. Does that disturb me in any way? The answer is --- no. In fact, I enjoy their "roundness". Surely they were put there for a purpose, and not to save cost. I es...
You are both correct. There is are no rounds used, flats were immediately placed.
Any longer. Also, in those years when I worked for projects as a "consumer", it's a really fun job to see these movements. The old purists from when the year this site migrated out of another, will recall my old responsibility , and why I had the leverage...
Bernard,....
Hello, Bernard, as a disclaimer, you know my diplomatic skills are not well developed, so please forgive any sort of offensive tone in my posting! I know a ot of people appreciate your contributions, while others are frequently troubled by some of the typ...
Hi Suitbert, if you have the time, I would be grateful...
if you could kindly correct any wrong information provided by Bernard for the benefit of all readers here. Your input would be much appreciated. Regards Ling
Hello, Ling,....
There're a lot of things in this posting which IMHO are at least misleading, but I'll try to name a few more specifically. First, rounded or flat screw heads - this are two different designs, but even Bernard is trying hard to suggest so - there's no diff...
Suitbert, thanks so much for your clarification.
Now, you provide a platform for readers to judge themselves of the accuracy of the information. I tend to agree that the quality of a watch cannot be determined merely by a few screws. Your input is much appreciated. Regards Ling
Incorrect. Here is why:
Suitberg wrote>>>"it does not make for a cheap solution at any price" His words should be>>at certain prices. He made a sweeping statement. He forgot to mention" it is very hard to use flat heads because the insertion of the driver may and ...
Bernard, no negative feeling at all. You get too sensitive.
I do not hear one side version. In fact, my profession trains me not to hear one side version. I want to read more info and judge the truth by myself. You have your point but it does not mean that you are certainly right. Suitbert also has his point and h...
Oh ok. I am wrong...
Oh ok. I am wrong to have said that. I am sincere. My apologies and I hope you forgive me. I also overreacted because I read your comment just after. Spending over an hour to set a drip on a baby from a poor family, and I charged them $2. My partner in ro...
Dear Bernard,
just a few words - I don't "challenge" Mr. Papi and if I ever get the chance I'd be curious to hear his take about a more specific question in that matter. To my personal experience a fillister type screw might be easier to be polished to a certain degree...
I agree with you
This was a part of a discussion. Still, the presence of poorly finished flats are rarely seen. The poorly finished rounds are flourishing, and even getting to big brands. There must be some one to speak up. Watch makers should. And it seems poorly finishe...
Bernard, provoking post, but I have trouble following you!
First of all, in order to make a conclusive argument on the topic of intrinsic values of rounded vs. flat-headed screws it would be useful to discuss the production implications vis-a-vis each other (you only focus on the flat-headed screws), and then the...
One step at a time...above.
These are all good friends, including Daniels. And they will agree. I ill explain above.
High end Horological aesthetics aren't 'static'
So I guess... that's part of the issue what is being addressed here. what elements should a consumer of High End horology pay attention to, and when are corners being cut. But again, as some posts have noted, there are issues of aesthetics of watchmaking ...
Yes!!! Spot on.
I missed this in my contemplations. Sincerely...thank you. There are some serious issues this has brought up. Thanks. You will see some changes.