patrick_y
[PuristSPro Moderator]
33617
I just walked away.
I explained to the guy, who is just an acquaintance, that he needs to get over the fact that it's not going to happen. I told him, no Patek dealer is going to give you the opportunity to double your money by selling you a watch. I asked him, if you were a Patek Philippe dealer, would you give yourself an arbitrage opportunity? He obviously hadn't thought of it from this perspective, and he said no, he wouldn't sell someone like him a watch. And simply thinking that it'll happen won't will it into existence.
I meet a lot of people who really embarrass themselves when it comes to the subject of watches. Even friends have inadvertently insulted me about watches. One woman, who's a venture capitalist, totally forgot her place, when she once said "sell my Panerai for X and I'll give you a commission" when she wanted an extremely high price for her Panerai when Panerai watches were not hot. I didn't argue with her - you can't win with fools. And I don't suffer fools well.
Another fella once said, "find me a Patek Philippe Nautilus at a super low price and I'll give you a finder's fee" and I said back to him, "I'm insulted, if I found it for as low of a price as you'd want, what's to prevent me from buying it myself? You're implying that this isn't an option for me. You're asking for something unrealistic, why would someone give you a spanking deal for a finder's fee? They'll just keep it themselves. You're totally unrealistic."
I'm getting upset thinking about this. Sure, we all have foot in our mouth moments. But people are so laser focused on something - especially when it concerns a hard to get watch - that they really lose sense of reality.
What A Patek Philippe Authorized Dealer Ought To Know To Keep Their Franchise
Some time ago, Patek Philippe announced their plans to close about 30% of all their dealers worldwide. Moderator Patrick_y explores in an unprecedented article that's geared towards dealers as well as watch collectors, how dealers fearing closure can impr...
Excellent write up ! Thank you.
I am glad my AD is pretty much everything you have mentioned here if not more. Very much in safe hands. Suppose we sometimes take it for granted the positive influence of our ADs on us the clients. Not once I’ve been pressured to buy something I don’t lik...
It's definitely a good thing to read that you're satisfied with your dealer!
Does your dealer have a good knowledge about the mechanics? And the entire staff is well versed about the mechanical details about watches? Then that would be a rare thing! Anyone in your dealer certified by the FHH with any of the three levels of certifi...
Extremely knowledgable !
In this part of the world, being a country with a small population, I am guessing the entire operation is smaller than say larger cities. We have a 7th generation family business representing the brand and they do represent the brand with pride. Not all s...
They should take the FHH test!
It's like a fine restaurant, they want to have a Certified Sommelier on the team. They should take the FHH Certification for watch sales professionals. That'll be a future quality standard for the industry. Sounds like I should move to Kiwi land!
Lol you should Patrick !
I don’t really know if they’ve done a formal qualification. But they really are best at what they do.
They should do the formal qualification...
If one naturally knows everything, what's a 2 hour test? It's like if I happen to already know how to be a surgeon, why not go to the medical board and get the official certification - especially if they already work in a jewelry store. The test doesn't r...
Superb and very interesting article, mon ami. These rules should apply to Patek Boutiques, too... Which is not the case everywhere in the world, I must say.
I have a funny story to share, I will just avoid mentioning the place, by charity... Best, Nicolas
The three Patek Philippe owned boutiques are definitely better than the average boutique...
The three Patek Philippe owned boutiques; Paris, London, and Geneva are definitely well run. Geneva has perhaps the best Patek Philippe sales individual in the world, Mr. Wang - whose knowledge of both modern and vintage Patek Philippe timepieces rivals a...
Certainly. I don't doubt there are flaws in every store! And nothing gets past your keen eye!
Can't wait to hear more! Need an update on your Alpine and how the family is doing too! Take care mon ami.
I’m in. When are we opening the new AD?
I will say the first thought that came to mind within the first few paragraphs is that the largest (and big corporate owned) PP dealer near me meets none of these standards. From what I see it’s purely a volume play and in a market where selling a Patek (...
I'd love to go into business with you!
We'd really have the chops to run a well run AD! Although in NYC the costs are so great, and the market is so saturated already... There are no geographical locations left to open a franchise... Mid town has too many dealers already, downtown perhaps? And...
Wow, what a great write up! NYC commercial spaces should keep getting cheaper, maybe a great time to start thinking about a new AD! I'm happy to work the floor :)
All great points and I can't believe how bad NYC AD's are! While I'm not sure there's room for a another Patek AD in NYC, if Patek creates the space I though we could have one that out services and out competes the rest... easily. I've never had a good ex...
I truly believe that the Sterns could afford to open a Patek Philippe Salon in NYC.
Fastwong, you know what you're talking about! Geneva, Paris, and London... The three Salons... Yes, they're very expensive to operate. But they really give the Sterns a lot of control over the brand and the customer experience. NYC, being such a large mar...
If you can' t beat them, join them? Maybe Stern needs a crack team to do a PP subsidiary just for boutiques in the US? :)
I don't think WOS even staffs their PP section, I imagine they just show up for appointments. Wempe is hit or miss. Time Machine was okay when my aunt used to work in the PP section and Nicholas Cage still had $ to blow Worst experience so far has been th...
Sad to read that Tiffany & Co is not stepping up to the plate...
The retail world has become spoiled. It used to look like this, people would wander in, without an appointment. The salesperson wouldn't know if the client was serious or just killing time. Yet, the hardworking and knowledgeable salesperson gives a thorou...
Same experience with Tiffany Patek
They should stop employing people who have worked in watch industry and train them. There are lot of people who have great watch knowledge and do not BS about wish list.
Very interesting write up. 👌🏽
The relative significance of a family owned AD is not something I would have ever considered.
Definitely something very important!
Patek Philippe really wants a jewelry store staff that has little turnover who has worked with their clients for years and are on a first-name basis with their clients. "Hello ArmisT, how are you and the family doing? Say hello to your daughter and your n...
I see it…what you describe is a very powerful strategy which especially with right clientele will nurture next generation clients (eg the kids of a given client).
When you say family owned AD, the main/only one that comes to mind is Govberg, only cause I’ve seen pics with his young boys who are being groomed for the family business. I guess PP’s Stern family and LVs Arnault family are all same model but on brand si...
Arnault is definitely not the same...
You're absolutely right, jewelers are in a special position, they know the kids age, graduation, and big celebrations within the family. So it's only natural for a jeweler to maintain that relationship with a family through generations. Arnault's empires ...
Thank you for taking the time to read!
3000 words! What a long article! Thanks for sticking it out!
Well spent time in my opinion!
And - as you point out yourself - much of this don't only apply to PP AP's, but equally well to AP's of other brands - and indeed in other branches. The intellectual level of this article as well as many other posts, is what holds this forum above others ...
Why thank you for the very kind words! We're glad you're here too! Individuals like you is what makes WPS special and keeps me coming back too!
I could've done a bit more editing. But the problem is that with these super long articles, the editing takes even longer than the initial article. After it was published, I still saw some word inefficiencies, a double entendre, and a few small detractors...
Well, I all to often I find something I would like to change after pressing "send". Glad I'm not the only one!
Returrning to the subjects at hand, I yet again share your thoughts. Of course Lange want to have representatives that can explain what makes Lange special. But it will be interesting to follow this in the future. In this way they do (hopefully) get sales...
The boutique idea...
The boutique idea is about control. Lange is going to shift to a mostly all boutique sales model. There will be very few ADs left if any. The boutiques are a VERY HIGH COST and FINANCIALLY RISKY endeavor. Obviously a multi-brand jewelry store is more effi...
From a personal point of view I do not like Langes choice.
It's a brand I like very much (and own a pair), because of an AD geographically close by. But there will not be a boutique close. So probably no more Langes for me. And I'm not the only one in this position. Each boutique will probably on average sell mor...
Everyone goes to Mecca...
Shopping is about going into town and making a purchase. Imagine someone in USA... A doctor in Arkansas has to fly to New York or Miami to go buy a Lange... So at least you're in Europe where everything is relatively close by. But yes, I understand where ...
Some more clocks...
This is a cool clock from Around Five. This Miki Eleta creation features race horses and a randomizer ensures a different horse wins almost every time. This one is from Dalibor Farny ...
They're definitely a lot of fun!
The Dalibor Farny and the Around Five clocks are affordable and lots of fun. The Miki Eletas are in the 1-3 million Swedish Krona range - the future Philippe Dufour of clocks. The Roland Iten belt buckles are around 300,000 Swedish Krona and up and he's d...
I knew about those clocks, had seen them before.
The Miki Eleta horse race is out of this world (and out of my financial means). Truly impressive. The Around Five clock I've been looking at and thinking about. I like the way it presents the time! Among more classical in style, but very interesting mecha...
The JLC Atmos looks nice!
I don't own one. I feel they're getting really expensive, and they're finicky - they can't be placed near vents nor near anything with even the slightest vibration. The balance wheel is fairly large, which means it takes a little more to shock the clock, ...
He is a very nice individual indeed...
Miki Eleta is a real guy. Nothing over the top. But real. Genuine. Nothing flashy. He once took me to lunch, in his garden. We foraged our own berries, mixed them in yogurt, he started a little fire in a fire pit surrounded with rocks, put on a metal grat...
Thank you! I know you listen to this advice.
Who knows, maybe you partially inspired this advice! You definitely deserve some credit!
Thank YOU for your kind words!
Thank you for taking the time to comment. With respect to Vacheron Constantin - they too are closing a lot of doors. Sometimes indiscriminately.
Huge thanks Patrick for such a beautiful, intelligent, and typically thought-provoking thread! :-) Your contributions to our Patek forum, as well as on current topics of critical importance, are as always invaluable!
While I don't have much to add to your detailed list of suggestions to ADs and collectors alike, this reminds me that, in Math, one of the first things we teach students is the potentially big difference between a "necessary" and a "sufficient" condition ...
Thank you for your generous comments my friend and fellow co-moderator!
There are some hard requirements to be a Patek Philippe dealer - a failure in these hard requirements results in MAJOR POINTS LOST, and will likely mean that their franchisee status will be in jeopardy. There are some requirements where there is some flex...
Indeed, that is another really good point that we should emphasize: too many Patek ADs took their agency for granted in the past! And methodology aside, the scare is so big now that, whoever survives, is likely to be a MUCH better AD going forward! ;-)
Even more scary for me though is that your reply implies that...I might also be considered a journalist! ;-))) But while I have admittedly received an incredible amount of love from Patek for many years, my only scented candles recently came from one of t...
Ahh! Very nice!
I have so many scented candles... And many of them seem to be from a brand called "Mizensir" which is a brand that Vacheron Constantin and Patek Philippe both use for their scented candles. I also don't use candles in my home as my home's Swiss air purifi...
Patrick, thank you for the most insightful article.
I agree, especially on the part about how clients should be treated as extended family. The moment the relationship feels transactional, one can forget about brand loyalty.
You definitely bring up something very important!
Thank you for your kind words. You mentioned something that's super important. And I want to take it down the rabbit hole at a different angle; Patek Philippe also knows that many of the clients are loyal to Patek Philippe and not necessarily to the autho...
My personal observation is that the ADs are only willing to invest in relationships with clients who have a demonstrated ability and willingness to spend on a consistent basis.
Folks with the potential for future spending, such as undergraduates with keen interest in watches, but no financial capability to indulge in watches at the moment are more often than not ignored. A pity, really.
Indeed... But it's logical... If you have empathy for the salesperson, you can see it's not scalable...
I'd say that's a little tiny bit harsh. Many salespeople are not 100% certain they'll be in the game in the long run. Thus, if they see someone who says "I'm not ready to buy now, but my ship may come in 2-3 years from now and I'll buy that $200,000 Bregu...
You are right of course my friend.
The scenario I described is utopian. Allow me to share my personal experience. When I was an undergraduate, I had the audacity to request to check out Langes at a local AD. I made it clear I couldn't afford it, but was fascinated by the brand. The salespe...
Amazing! You had good taste!
I have to admit, I had a similar experience. When I was an undergraduate, I too had the audacity to check out Langes. And the subsequent catalogue did fuel my passion for watches!
Wonderful!
Such experience does not take much from the AD, but goes a long way. Conversely, a snobbish sales attitude would ruin the chances of future purchases.
This is actually why I think think the AD model is sooooo squeezed...
Staff need to make their numbers and fair play to sell whatever they can however they need to do it or get fired.... But a brand owned boutique can serve a higher cause. There are only two Blancpain boutiques in the US. TWO! And the NYC one is awesome bec...
But consider the holistic ecosystem...
Good salespeople want to go to the hot brands or the hot stores because they want to increase their earning potential and to maximize their effect. Today, a Master Sommelier doesn't want to work at a tiny restaurant with no critical acclaim. A Master Somm...
Ah, great point! I hadn't considered the other side of the equation, though PP could afford the best.
For PP, when the product already sells itself and there's not enough inventory for a good sales person to sell, maybe it's a moot point? Maybe they've passed some tipping point where their talent is wasted like a som at a restaurant with an empty wine cel...
The woman was kind of silly to ask...
The salesperson would probably interpret the woman as rude and silly. She's interrupting. And only to ask a really silly question with an obvious answer. Hannibal Lecter would definitely consider her rude. Salespeople have been spoiled lately and are defi...
An excellent analysis. Indeed, unacceptably poor behaviour from customers contributed to this unfortunate cycle.
I shudder to think how the situation would deteriorate when there is a surge of rich but unsophisticated consumers....
It happened big time. Starting in 2009...
Starting in 2008/2009, was just as the time the Japanese really started to slow down buying luxury goods. But no problem, the Chinese more than made up for it. Despite the 2008/9 financial crisis worldwide, the Chinese economy was well off and just coming...
Excellent article and well written
Certainly a new perspective given all the recent developments with Patek ADs…love reading this! Would be interesting to see how ADs will react to more stringent requirements from Patek after the auction of sealed watches this Spring in HK.
The ADs all got a sternly worded letter from Thierry Stern about that...
All the ADs worldwide got a sternly worded letter from Thierry Stern reminding them not to sell watches with the packaging. I don't know personally which AD did that, maybe it was an AD who was going to lose their franchise or already knew they were going...
Just for the record Patrick, the AD in question is a large chain with, currently, several Patek Philippe licenses in the UK.
I personally made sure their name didn't appear here (and when it did, it promptly got removed), for our forum is obviously not the proper venue for a public trial. A decision on a matter as sensitive and consequential as terminating a dealership should s...
Ahh! Good to know!
Yes indeed, I have no opinion about this matter. And I didn't keep a close eye on this problem as I wasn't too concerned about this problem.
Thanks Patrick for the edutainment!
Very thoughtful in how the informational was provided and with a fun tone to keep it light. I am actually in awe with the knowledge you choose to share. Thanks and we are lucky to have you and this very special community and platform to share our passion....
Quod licet Iovi non licet bovi ...
This is a marvelous article indeed! However, when you stated at the end that there are several similar strategies from other watch brands, I have my doubts that these have the same high principles in mind as Patek Philippe. I would rather assume that Pate...
You're quite right, there is indeed a double standard.
You're quite right, other brands whom have undergone their retail transformation are not doing it for the same reasons as Patek Philippe. Lange for instance, having spoken with the Lange CEO about this, has decided that they are going to mostly leave mult...
Thank you for reading and commenting!
It's definitely not easy. But for the right person with that happy joyous outgoing personality, owning a watch and jewelry store and building long-term relationships with clients can be a very natural thing. But yes, it's difficult to find "naturals" in t...
great article but patek should really do something to help
customers that lost their AD to transition to another AD
They do for some of the big clients...
For clients that they have a relationship with, they do try to help with some transition. They basically offer to introduce the client to any dealer the client so chooses. This is done at mostly the regional level (at the distributor level) and not necess...
interesting, that would be great. surpringly I have heard from many somewaht serious collectors
Im talking 10-15 pateks with a long history at the previous AD such as Shreve in San Francisco that they are out in the cold. Curious who shared this with you ?
Yes. That is the case with most clients.
But there are a few exceptions. It's almost rare. But yes. When I said "For clients they have a relationship with..." the "They" refers to Patek Philippe at the distributor level. So Patek Philippe does help some clients whom they know very well with an i...
Got it makes sense HSWA is the key then
how would you even get a relationship with them ? I guess only thru buying MR or rare handcrafts or making friends if you go on a factory visit
Yes. HSWA.
I've said too much already, but the clients at Shreve - may be the smartest people in the world in the tech and science space but buying watches is probably not their forte. The phrase "they don't know what they don't know" definitely applies nearly every...
Hello Dauster, I'll leave it at Patrick's exhaustive (and instructive) series of replies, but the point is really that most ADs already have enough established customers today to be able to take care of new ones, save true exceptions.
As a consequence, collectors with no direct connection to the brand AND who've only been relying on a single AD for their purchases, are unfortunately left with very few viable options in the short run. It is just a fact of life, as sad as it is unsurpris...
Thank you FabR for your concise answer!
Yes. This is a very major part of the problem. Also, there are many others, let me present this logical scenario: "the significant clients" Dauster was mentioning are generally/mostly interested in "significant"watches and these significant and special pi...
To be as usual totally honest, my general sense is that while *at the very top* Patek collectors will be fine anyway, for a larger and larger segment of other folks the situation has ultimately become TOO competitive...
I arbitrarily defined March 30, 2022 as THE date after which it was no longer possible for the random collector to walk into a Patek Authorized Dealer and buy *some* watch. This date coincides with the announcement of the 2022 Collection at W&W --- a ...
thanks, that was a great read and interesting take on it. You are as usual spot and but I have never thought about a specific date like March 2022
I think the essence is - if you really want to have a relationship with patek you will need deep pockets and a bit of luck to have the right relationships
You're exactly right Dauster...
The client will have to do the pursuing. But many of them go about it the wrong ways too. A lot of subtlety. And that subtlety is not well understood in Silicon Valley's new-to-watches clientele. Heck, it's even lost on the old to watches clientele.
Definitely correct, a little bit of money is necessary in this hobby, but also, Patek can be immensely generous with friendly and passionate collectors (I assume this is the essence of my case -- alas, professors are very far from being billionaires! ;-))
Needless to say that friendly relationships and mutual respect, in watches like in much of life, are always paramount. But then, the way I view things, the rest should only be happiness and fun, since in the end this is just a hobby.....although the most ...
It's a very rewarding hobby...
Some of the most colorful people I've met are from the watch community. And I'm pleased to count you, my fellow FabR, amongst them!
I concur...
I concur. I would even say it was before March 2022 in my experience. It was hard to even get a simple annual calendar. Perpetual calendars are generally slow to move too, since they're expensive, but those are even often sold out. Exactly. There are no g...
A great point, I think we never highlight enough the unique breadth and versatility of Patek's catalog, at all levels! And now, want the happiest watch of Patek's entire offering as a daily beater to match your yellow pants? We even got that! :-))
Admittedly, my first non-Rare Handcraft Patek in MANY years.....but after seeing it at this summer's events, it was just too great looking and fun and modern not to humbly request one for myself! ...
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