ThomasM
[PuristS]
14331
The problem with these discussions, Nicolas, Yves, is that this sub-discussion
often violates a basic rule of discussion among intelligent, informed enthusiasts - the comments being batted back and forth DO NOT PROVIDE NECESSARY AND PROPER CONTEXT.
In this case, the time frame of the comments.
VC today probably produces much, maybe even all (except for hairsprings and crystals, for example) of their "manufacture" movements in house.
It is a FACT (that might be conveniently forgotten by even the inhouse marketing department) that at some points in the past, movements were brought in (mostly) finished, and mostly just cased and regulated.
Please, let's keep the discussion at the standards we respect and hope to maintain here on PuristSPro, including discussing the same context, point for point.
It is a non-sequitor to reply to dje that today everything is done in house as a sort of refutation to him when his original comment was a historical one.
Cheers,
TM
Patek Philippe 5070 : An In Depth Review.
- INTRODUCTION - When you're considering building a collection of fine Chronographs the 5070 is certainly a piece which comes or will come to your mind, along with some past or recent models such as the Lange Datograph, the Vacherons (Les Historiques / Ma...
WOW a titanesque and thorough research work, Bravo! As for the cap on the column wheel
I believe it was first used in pocket watches as to prevent the column wheel from "jumping" whan the chronograph pushers were activated. Today it is more aesthetical than useful.
Thanks for your input, Alex
Can you tell us more about the finish on the VC Chrono movement, my friend? Best, Nicolas
Those chronographs are all stunning
Hi Nicolas, Thank you for this superb review. Even if it's expressing your point of view, it is very well made and can really help someone make his mind. As you can imagine I don't share all your opinions but all your opinions are totally respectable IMVH...
Interesting....
do you think that the PP finishing on all models is the same to Lange? thanks cheers
agree for a 5170 comparison with new 1815 chrono.
I will follow with great interest this other report on these two 2010 novelties. Cheers, patrickh
The 5170 doesn't have a flyback... The 1815 does.
The true competitors of the PP 5070, are, mechanically speaking, the VC Chronos. They share the same base, they don't have flybacks. So, yes, the 1815 doesn't not have a Date, but its movement is almost identical to the Dato, and can't be considered a a t...
in fact PP 5170 and Lange have in-house movement with 2
different creations. Best Patrickh
Yep, that is their only common point.
Not sure of the rythm of the 5170...18 000 would make another common point... To be confirmed. Best, Nicolas
Also.....
good point on comparing the PP (even the new model) with the 1815.... cheers
Well, Jerome
There are a lot of things to say about the 5070 and the VC... I'm not really sure that the CH 27 - 70 is better finished than the VC movement. But yes, it seems that PP reworked and finished it, while VC " only " finished " the movement. As for the Dato, ...
Well it depends...
Hi Nicolas, " I'm not really sure that the CH 27 - 70 is better finished than the VC movement. " The finish is not extremely different, and IMO the finish of the CH27-70 improved in time. The last ones are better finished than on the first 3970 for me. " ...
Interesting rumour
Dje You say: ‘If only that could be true, but AFAIK VC does not finish the calibre, it is finished and assembled at Lemania, that's why the VC has the very same finish as the Breguet.’ I will not comment now as I am running at out time, but I will gladly ...
Well, in-house Dressage on its own is approximately 11 hours
Copy/Paste from Vacheron Constantin Forum, article by: Alex Ghotbi 'To give you two examples of this, a plate for a skeleton watch can take over a day just to bevel, a tourbillon bridge requires over 11 hours of black polishing. In January, 100 caliber 11...
Your link doesn't work
Hi Yves, Your link doesn't work but I found this one: www.thehourlounge.com That may explain an evolution? I was there in 2005 and I know what was told to me at that time. Things may have changed and obviously if they now produce the parts they certainly ...
The link works perfectly, just in case here again
www.thehourlounge.com I have known Vacheron Constantin for a long time, many years. I can assure that there nothing that can remotely allow anyone to associate them with or as an assembler. Speaking of Vacheron Constantin is speaking about fine horology. ...
full article here
Article from Vacheron Constantin Forum / Alex Ghotbi Movement Finish: The True Mark of Haute Horlogerie At An age where powerful computer aided design machines can design any watch and where the whole industry is trying to go upscale, there is one major e...
patek moonwatch
I always thought of the 5070 as the patek moonwatch for the billionare astronaut because of the 42mm diameter and the caliber, patek 1861
Sorry but
Hi Yves, Sorry but your second link still doesn't work (at least with my computer)! Don't worry I don't need such a lesson about Vacheron Constantin! I've looked closely at them for more than 20 years now. I certainly don't know all, but enough to not agr...
No need to be sorry
I fail to understand your sentiment when you say: 'I don ' t need such a lesson' I am far from the thought of giving a lesson to anyone, you included. I am sharing gathered knowledge on this topic, that is all you ought to here read. I would be sorry to l...
By the way
Hi Yves, You links work from my house but not from my office, I don't know why! Sorry about that. Cheers Dje
Yves, please see my reply to Amanico below
click here Not directed at Alex Ghotbi or VC (I consider Alex a personal friend and he is, historically, the VERY FIRST PERSON to ever post on a PuristS forum, and as such, is an Original Purist Emeritus) specifically, but you and I both know that marketi...
Only JLC has a history of true manufacture...
Dear DJE, Only JLC has a history of true manufacture. Members of the grand three (PP, VC, and AP) do not have such history. VC is no exception. Therefore, writing, as you did, that "Vacheron Constantin is not historically a calibre maker..." needs some ba...
AJ, since we are on the subject of historical facts (and exposing historical myths...
Hi AJ, "Case in point is that all PP chornos prior to now used either Valjoux or Lemania movements. Because Valjoux and Lemania were specialist in chrono calibers and made the best designs." In fact the majority of PP chronos "in the golden age" were by P...
...on historical facts
Thank you for your input, TM, Indeed, Victorin Piguet should be included in the list of specialist firms that provided chrono calibers to PP. (Although, I was inder the impression that the majority suppliers since the 1960's were Valjoux cal. 22/23 and Le...
This is fun!
...on historical facts Date: Apr 23, 2010,10:43 AM - (view entire thread) | Share Adjust Font Size: >> - | + "Indeed, Victorin Piguet should be included in the list of specialist firms that provided chrono calibers to PP. (Although, I was inder the impres...
Thank you Thomas, Yves, Nicolas, all others for this discussion!
Hi, Now we have to meet with a bottle of Bas-Armagnac and all these watches to have a look at them! Cheers Dje
Now that's an excellent idea, Jerome.
I'm sure that a bottle of " Bas Armagnac " will help us a lot ot feed the discussion about the finish of these fine( de fine ) Chronos... This time, let's just take our precautions and get some apsirin before! )) Best, Nicolas
I fully agree with what you write AJ!
Hi, And that was not my intention to state anything about Patek Philippe in fact. I wrote like I could have done on the VC forum. Cheers Dje
As the in house finish of the movement by VC
When I prepared the in depth review on the VC " Les Historiques " Chrono, I did some searches and fell on 2 theories. One said that the finish was made by Lemania under VC specifications, as you said. Others said that VC finished the Lemania movement. I h...
The problem with these discussions, Nicolas, Yves, is that this sub-discussion
often violates a basic rule of discussion among intelligent, informed enthusiasts - the comments being batted back and forth DO NOT PROVIDE NECESSARY AND PROPER CONTEXT. In this case, the time frame of the comments. VC today probably produces much, maybe ...
No problem here Thomas
On the topic, to me whereas it is a Patek, Breguet, Vacheron, Omega and many others, the movement is a Lemania belonging to Breguet. So to me all of those Chronographs should be regarded for anything else than their branded cosmetics values, safe for Breg...
Thank you, PoyFR
I appreciate your friendship and I especially appreciate that you consider yourself a guest here; many of the "other guests" too often forget that. Fairness and consistency is the anti-thesis of hyprocrisy, and you know how I feel about hypocrisy... Cheer...
Thanks to you and Jerome for your historical inputs.
But we also were discussing about the finish of the " Les Historiques " and Malte Chronos, which use the same Lemania movement than in the current Patrimony Chrono, AFAIK. So, it was interesting, and not out of topic, to discuss about it, IMO. Best, Thoma...
Very interesting review Nicolas
I like your approach of these stunning chronographs. You share with us your love for all these "high" valuable watches. I re-read with pleasure your post and try to enter deeply in your photos. Thanks +++++ Wear yours in good health, for sure. Cheers, pat...
Thanks for your nice words, Patrick
Yes, I love all of these 4 beasts, for what they are: Very fine Chronos. The comparisons have their own limits, indeed. But they all share the status of Fine Chronos. Best, Nicolas
Thanks a lot, my friend.
I remember some of your tremendous wrist shots... Best, Nicolas
Thanks, Chris
Wish you the best in your hunt, and that one day, your dream comes true... I had to wait 6 years for it! BUT I got it, FINALLY! Best, Nicolas
THANK YOU !!!!!
Ofcourse I wa slooking forward to this review. It took quite some time but now I see why For me, a BIG 5070 fan this is one of the best reviews I ever read. And I'm sure i will click this link many times in the years to come. Can't agree on all your point...
Don't get me wrong, Bruno
As I warned, comparisons have their own limits. I said that the Dato and the Duometre could be compared to the 5070 only because the 5070 is claimed by many as THE best Chrono in the world, and because, of course it belongs to the category of Fine Chronog...
Well, so much fun to read this review, Nicolas!
I know you have been thinking about these four chronos for a long time, and it is great to have a better understanding of your thoughts on these watches. I was dying to see your comparison of the Duometre and the 5070. I was surprised by some of what you ...
Thanks a lot, Respo
That's the Beauty of our Passion: Everybody has its own Champion, among these 4. Some are better than others on some points, indeed, and wouldn't the Best of these 4 be a blend of each of them? The thinness of the PP case, the innovation of the Duometre, ...
I salute to YOU ..... a wonderful report !!
Thank you to everyone who helped made this report, superb in everyways !!
Excellent comparative review!
Thank you, Nicholas, for the detailed comparison. Useful reading for chronograph fans. There are two more chronos, in my humble opinion, that share the same pedigree with the ones in your analisys: Breguet 5237 and Roger Dubuis Hommage Chronograph. I only...
Of course, I could have included some more Chronos
Like this R.D ,or the U.N Chrono Monopusher: Or THE Vintage Reference: The Longines 13 ZN or 30 CH, with the screw in case back, which are among the nicest ever made. There is always something subjective in this kind of review, indeed. And I'm very happy ...
I will probably take the time to review it but...
Unfortunately, even if it has the Louvelle Lemania mechanism, I am sorry to admit that it is quite a fragile watch. Please note that it comes from the beginning of the brand (my watch was first sold in 2002) and a higher quality of assembly is expected. I...
What a review, and what a comparison!!!
All so similar, yet completely different! Fantastic! Do you have a particular favourite?
I love them 4, my friend.
As previously said, my favourite would be a mix of these 4 beasts. Best, Nicolas
Thank you so much for putting the time into this post......
It really makes very enjoyable reading and although based on your thoughts you have allowed the photographs to do the talking...... I happen to agree with you and think that it is the most beautiful chrono available and for me is much more appealing than ...
That's a terrific thing, Miles.
I was the first on the list in France, for the 5070P. I never got it, and was never called by my AD. So, I had to come back to my first option, the G. But I had, several times, the opportunity to see the P in the flesh, and I must admit that it is dangero...
Agree Nicolas, is it madness to aquire both???? As this would break one of my rules :)
I have tried very hard not to have 2 of anything in my collection but had to break it just the once for these 2 ....... So I think 2X 5070`s would be wrong for me... Kindest Miles. ...
re: 5070 An In Depth Review...
Great post Amanico! Also thanks to Jerome and POY for their contributions! -MW
Well my friend.....
first of all thank you for this great report...... Your ideas/views are very interesting.... The presentation was superb.... I agree with your strap choice... almost perfect.... You could also consider a grey one (similar to Oliver's).... However I do dis...
Well, PP
I still think that the PP 5070 shouldn't be compared to the Lange 1815 Chrono, as the movements are not the same ( dedicated for the Lange / adapted for the PP, Flyback for the Lange, not for the PP ). Same for the 5070 / Duometre ( Foudroyante, in this c...
MMmmm....
Then, we should find another Lange chrono to compare it... lol As far as the duometre, I was referring to the finishing of the case, the movement is a different concept and thus not comparable..... Having said that, these kind of posts are very interestin...
The finish of the Duometre case
Is brushed and polished, while the 5070 case is entirely polished. That's what I meant. As for the link about the Duometre and amvox II, I will have to do a search...When I have 5 minutes. Best! Nicolas
Thanks a lot for the compliment, Nomer
I could have spent more time studying the famous Lemania movement which was used by PP and VC... But I didn't say my last word... Best, Nicolas
What a contribution - In depth is an understatement.
I think this detailed review and comparison with other chrono icons will be read and re-read many times over. Perhaps some of the comparisons may be imperfect as these icons have some different functions and expressions, but I'd certainly attempt to make ...
Agreed on the imperfect comparison
The only comparison, at the end, is between the VC and the PP, not with the 2 other Chronographs. But they both share a same thing, or should I say Philosophy: The Vision of fine Chronographs from their respective brands. In that sense, the comparison is ...
Nice review
Nice comparison with the others, I prefer the Vacheron and the 5170 visually as like you say the "numbers aren't eaten by the subdials". Though I'm sure you and the other owners of the 5070 don't mind All of these examples are classics.
I understand your point.
We can't go wrong with each of these marvels. I must admit that I would have much preferred to not see the applied numbers " eaten " by the 2 counters, but I can live with that. Best, Nicolas
great comparo mate
love it, been sometime since i read a good comparison. chronos have always been my fav. thks mate for the extremely readable article and your views.
E.Zegna... The Italian Style.
I'd better answer that, my Italian wife is just behind me... Best, Nicolas
I only can say that...
Me quito el sombrero ante usted, Señor! It´s a in-depth review and not mine I only can say that I´ve read all the interesting post. It seems a lot becoming from me, because this watches are out of my dreams (money is the problem). I only could admire them...
They are all beautiful, Emilio.
We're at the Chronographs Champions League, here. Each of them can easily be a favourite, such as this awesome Datograph. Un dia, quizas? Best, Hermano. Nicolas
Thanks for sharing...
…a wonderful review of these iconic chronos. You views are interesting and refreshing. I have learnt much about the 5070 without ever seeing the watch itself in the flesh. I also like the comparison with its ‘competitors’ as I have handled the Datograph, ...
It is one thing to see a watch alone,
It is much different when you compare them at the same moment and place. I think that it is the best way to fully understand and appreciate a watch, as it gives us some landmarks. With all the limits, of course, as we can only compare which is comparable....
Thanks, Nicolas.
I thoroughly enjoyed the review and the comparisons. The 5070 is one of my favorite chronos and, like you, I wish it didn't cut into or "eat" into the applied numbers. Thanks again. Aloha, Bob
It would have been better without, indeed.
That the 2 counters don't eat the numbers. It is a big deal for some of us, while others ( and I'm among this last category ) can live with. The funny thing with the 5070 is that its imperfections are its ..strength, in a certain way. How many chronograph...
Such a detailed analysis on the 5070.....
Many thanks for such a great report. I have already bookmarked this line in my computer. James
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