Comments:
Hand-Turned or Machine Guilloche? See WatchAdvisor video starting from 18:30 - Credit to WatchAdvisor for Video and image
Per WatchAdvisor Video - start from 18:30 -> Guido says a machine does something to the dial, I think he is saying some guilloche dials are made by machines. See YouTube Video below.
Credit Watch Advisor
That’s the video I mentioned a few times, was too lazy to dig it up
But that video + looking at the dial with a loupe and I’m almost 100% sure it’s done with a cnc
I think that the definition of HAND MADE finishing is out of control
I think that the quest for the hand made is getting odd.
In what way, if any, does the CNC guilloché diminish the overall value and beauty of the Tonda?
Given the only undebatable fact that prices are all crazy, I usually prefer the best quality I can get, that's why CNC machining can achieve that precision that would take too much time if only man made.
The new Greubel Forsey hand made 2 took 5000 hours, I think that there should be a balance between finishing, quality and price.
Of course it's a dream because usually machining is the best way to save money, not the achieve the highest level of precision and perfection.
In what way, if any, does the CNC guilloché diminish the overall value and beauty of the Tonda?
Given the only undebatable fact that prices are all crazy, I usually prefer the best quality I can get, that's why CNC machining can achieve that precision that would take too much time if only man made.
The new Greubel Forsey hand made 2 took 5000 hours, I think that there should be a balance between finishing, quality and price.
Of course it's a dream because usually machining is the best way to save money, not the achieve the highest level of precision and perfection.
Breguet uses a rose engine in the same price range
And gets a much better 3D looking dial as a result imo.
YMMV. Personally I think it’s a missed opportunity.
YMMV. Personally I think it’s a missed opportunity.
Many purists thought it was hand made
Now It looks CNC made.
Watchmakers should always tell the truth, no more storytelling.
Then a customer is informed and free to choose
Watchmakers should always tell the truth, no more storytelling.
Then a customer is informed and free to choose
This. At this point one cannsafely assume that it’s CNC, unless a watchmakers says otherwise.
I couldn’t agree more
It’s not a matter : of aren’t we nitpicking here? Or “diminishing the over value. ..”
handmade guilloche has a very specific and well understood meaning. If you say it, you are saying in effect, …by a rose engine.
It’s not about diminishing the overall value. But diminishing the overall credibility of the firm marketing the product. And yes, diminishing the overall cost of a good sold does diminish its overall value of the goods being sold.
It may not decrease the overall desirability or scarcity which could make up for that reduction. But something made more cheaply is cheaper. Whether it is a store of value is determined by the subsequent highest bidder, not by the owner.
There is a concept called truth in advertising and like another poster here ( who makes the central point ) the customer has the right to be informed and the right to choose based on the truth.
I have a neo vintage chronoswiss Delphis. The dial is stamped. I purchased it at a diminished value years after it was produced. I’m very happy with it at the price I paid, knowing exactly what I purchased. Besides being enjoyable to wear, I believe it will be a store of value at the price I paid, but I would not have bought it at the price originally offered.
But I digress.
The point here is that we cannot redefine an agreed upon term to suit our sales plan and increase our sales margins unless the market redefines the term. that’s ignorant at best and deceptive at worst.
handmade guilloche has a very specific and well understood meaning. If you say it, you are saying in effect, …by a rose engine.
It’s not about diminishing the overall value. But diminishing the overall credibility of the firm marketing the product. And yes, diminishing the overall cost of a good sold does diminish its overall value of the goods being sold.
It may not decrease the overall desirability or scarcity which could make up for that reduction. But something made more cheaply is cheaper. Whether it is a store of value is determined by the subsequent highest bidder, not by the owner.
There is a concept called truth in advertising and like another poster here ( who makes the central point ) the customer has the right to be informed and the right to choose based on the truth.
I have a neo vintage chronoswiss Delphis. The dial is stamped. I purchased it at a diminished value years after it was produced. I’m very happy with it at the price I paid, knowing exactly what I purchased. Besides being enjoyable to wear, I believe it will be a store of value at the price I paid, but I would not have bought it at the price originally offered.
But I digress.
The point here is that we cannot redefine an agreed upon term to suit our sales plan and increase our sales margins unless the market redefines the term. that’s ignorant at best and deceptive at worst.
What I take from this is Parmagiani is playing fast and loose with certain dial-making terminology.
I agree that when you say "hand-turned" you are talking about the use of a rose engine. It appears that Parmagiani does not use one-at least in the making of that Tonda dial. I guess that the way the brand uses a cnc machine is not strictly "stamping"-it's carving, or "drilling", but it wouldn't hurt to be clear about that across all media; including on its website.
Good point; there are many ways to make a guilloche dial outside of CNC and a
Rose engine…
Here is a very short video provided to me by a contact at PF briefly showing the dial guilloche process.
The process is performed on a hand operated lathe, not CNC.
www.watchprosite.com
Is this "hand guilloche"? Let me know what you think. Thanks!
www.watchprosite.com
Is this "hand guilloche"? Let me know what you think. Thanks!
Is the anglage made by a Dremel hand made?
From what I've been told years ago about few famous independents who were outsourcing parts, tourbillon cages and so on, I've become extremely doubtful when I read those statements of 100% in house, hand made, etc.
They hide being NDA 😎
P.S. here's the place where I've recently found out that Akrivia aka Rexhepi had the first movements outsourced.
Transparency is still not that common in Swiss watchmaking.
Clarification from Parmigiani today
My question sent today to PF:
On the Milano Blue Chronograph, is the dial guilloche executed by hand or by CNC?
The reply from PF customer service:
"The dials of the Tonda PF are hand executed. The dials of the Tonda PF Sport are machine executed."
M4
Right - as noted above, I think there are many ways and methods to create a
Guilloche dial - CNC and a rose engine being but two methods; but the creation of guilloche dials are not limited to those two methods {stamping, hand hammering, chiseling, maybe lasers, etc,)
I think Parmigiani should let us see what “hand executed” means… I am a bit curious myself
I love the dials on the PF but do I believe a little old man with a hammer and chisel is carving out every indentation on this dial not a chance. Still I think it is a beautiful dial and watch.
And what about the dials on the 15202 or 16202 - are these still cut on a rose lathe as was done in the past? I find it hard to believe but happy to be proven wrong.
One more interesting thing to note about manufacturing the Royal Oak
In 1972 I heard AP did NOT have the machines to finish the Royal Oak to Genta’s designs; so, the models shown at BaselWorld were in white gold because gold is softer than steel and could be finished easier…
The comments on the video are funny and also address the misuse of hand made for both dial and bezel
At this point I assume any / all of the big brands do little if any skilled handwork (which is fine) and ignore the false or misleading marketing (not fine but the norm). My hope is that the big brands return to providing great value like JLC used to rather than chasing indies and falsely promoting artisanal craft work they don't actually do.