Horological Meandering

WatchProSite Moderator Patrick_y compares two excellent micro-rotored caliber from two big Swiss independent watch brands. The Patek Philippe 240 Caliber VS the Chopard L.U.C. 96.40-L Caliber. Some of you have asked me to make some comparisons between the...  

But IMHO there is Patek and there’s everything else.

A lot of people think that way. Sometimes I even think that way. And I think that's putting blinders on. We should be objective! Although, as human beings, sometimes we're not! Thank you for your honesty! But do try to appreciate the Chopard for what it i... 

While their pieces are gorgeous (and I used to have a titanium MM), I was never aware of their price tag. The prices are astronomical. I was shocked.

But that's just my thought.

Although I do find that the 1860 LUC is SOMEWHAT EXPENSIVE considering it's a steel cased watch. I mean... Considered to the Vacheron Constantin 82172 Traditionelle model, that watch is a 3-hand design in GOLD for the same price as the Chopard. BUT! Some ...  

While Chopard IMHO is underrated still. I don't know any other brand who does chronometer certification even for their Tourbillons, Full strike MR (same approach for Ferdinand Berthoud). Full Strike is also by far the best MR in market - I understood Mr. ... 

The Ferdinand Berthoud and the Minute Repeater are amazing! The vintage pieces from Patek are extremely charming.

My Chopard XPS, when fully wound, runs within 2 sec/day which I am very pleased with! Thanks for sharing

Whomever adjusted and calibrated yours probably spent some extra time! All of those accuracy pursuits are all very time intensive pursuits. The Breguet Overcoil is especially a big deal to many people. In all honesty, that alone really puts this watch abo... 

Your watch has it! Yay! Here is a Youtube video that shows you the difference, but doesn't explain why the Breguet system is better. Overall the Breguet system is better because the whole spring breathes and this allows gravitation effects to be less impa... 

Even this video is not easy to understand without some prior background knowledge. Good job!

What I'm most shocked by are the bevels on the 240. How on earth is Patek not mirror polishing those? They look unbelievably rough...

And reading about the the 240q movement was fascinating. What amazed me the most (and this is well documented) is that Patek made this movement during the quartz crisis. It has certainly been in many of their best watches. And I certainly a movement I adm... 

My first watch love was the Jaeger-LeCoultre Reverso. I was so certain that a Reverso was going to be my first watch. Somehow, I met a Patek Philippe 5000R and 6000G which both had the 240 caliber and that did me in - I liked the movement so much that I d... 

Which is the whole point of a Patek seal...

If you look at the photo, it has the Poinçon. I don't know how Patek managed to flop that hard on that movement. I can't say I'm shocked--they're not the pinnacle of watchmaking, but still it's impressive (that they flopped).

That's as good as the Geneva Seal gets!

You're looking at the photo from W220 where you can see some "chatter" lines in the polishing. This is normal. The reason why you don't see them on brands such as Lange is because Patek Philippe uses a brass plate that's rhodium plated and Lange uses Germ... 

I haven't seen that on many Breguets, Armin Stroms, or Czapeks. I know they're not using maillechort. The only time I've seen Breguet lacking is when they use CNC machines to do their bevels. They then turn out to have no interior angles, they have all so... 

The anglage is polished with humans with a little dentist drill like tool. But the interior angles, those require files, wooden sticks with diamond sandpaper, and more. It's hard to exactly know what everyone is talking about on a chat forum. But it reall... 

Now, like I said, I didn't find marks like on the Patek on my 1315. Perhaps I need even more magnification (but I was using about 7x). However, I'll maintain that anglage can still be performed by machine and often is. Not the great, "true" anglage (i.e.,...  

That's a great photo. It's not a CNC machine in the second photo. That's still by hand with a spinning tool that looks fairly similar to a spinning dentist drill. Not a CNC machine. The Geneva Seal is still a standard for mass produced watches. Not for to... 

My favorite iteration of the PP 240. ...  

The 5000R was the first watch from Patek Philippe that I saw with the 240 caliber movement - and the first watch that got me excited about movements! Very nice and rare specimen!

None of the Patek’s that I own or have owned (all with PP deal) have performed within the proposed -2/+3 criteria, and I’m talking about a 5712 and a 6119R. The lack of hacking seconds on my 5712 always bothered me, as did the “finishing” of the dial and ... 

I don't think any of my Pateks are in that -2/+3 criteria neither. The lack of a hacking seconds bothers me on my 5712 too! So when it stops, I try to star winding the watch just at the right moment!

That's pretty disappointing. Lots of people have special reverence for Patek, but I've never understood it. It's not like they're MG/GF/LF/L&H/ when it comes to finish... You're probably right that it's down to the scale of production.

Now the PP mafia is gonna come after me 😆

It seems that that's common...people seem to defend brands' practices even when confronted with solid information contrary to their view. Let's hope the mafia spares you (and myself, to an extent).

Gary_g said there's Patek and there's everything else... Not to point fingers at Gary_g, but there are a lot of people who think that way. Most of the time it's unwarranted. I call it "wearing blinders."

(From SS nautilus to multi-multi-complications). It doesn’t make their finishing the best or their movements the most accurate or efficient. But it can certainly make its collectors (like Gary_g) hold it in the highest regard for many-a-good reason. note:... 

FPJ isn't bad. But it's not that good. In some areas, I'd say it's lower than Patek. But it's a cool looking watch. That thin French elegance and design is definitely special! I like it!

What's more different is the style. The German style IS EXTREMELY DECORATIVE and looks EXTREMELY DECORATIVE. The Swiss-French style is nearly just as decorative but it doesn't look as nice - especially brass movements vs German silver movements. So I'd sa... 

More highly decorated does not necessarily equate to higher levels of finishing.

I wouldn't know what to wear every morning. Probably the Patek since if that stopped, it'd be harder to set!

Good point, when I return from holidays and pick up the 5270 from the vault I always schedule a "winding session", where I turn the crown for minutes on end until everything is aligned again. Not the most fun thing to do but I prefer it over pressing on t... 

I've done that before. Yes, literally winding the crown for minutes on end.

I haven't timed my Pateks. But I don't really pay attention as long as it's not off by a lot. My JLCs seem to run pretty fast, maybe a minute every 2-3 days? But they don't have second hands, so I can't tell for sure.

Patek Philippe is a Mercedes-Benz equivalent. People want to say that it's a Rolls Royce. But it's not. Now. Mercedes Benz does make exceptional cars every now and then.

I think this is the way to think of their positioning in the market. I think they're almost like the Rolex of the high-end--the default choice that has some occasionally great things going on, but isn't all that the marketing has you believe.

...  

You're very lucky to be able to get one of those special 1860 models!

to order one after its presentation.

Most people are waiting about a year or so to get it. Although some people have been quoted much longer wait timeframes.

I read your thoughtful, detailed analysis several times and learned a lot. I never knew about the history of the micro-rotor. Didn't know they were that old, found in the 1950's. Personally, I fell in love with the L.U.C. 1.96 movement over 20 years ago a...  

The 1860 is just such a nice watch. Before 2023, I was trying to find one in any of the 18K gold variants (yellow, white, or rose) in excellent condition, complete, from someone I knew and trusted. Wasn't successful. You really have a wonderful wonderful ... 

There's the obvious aesthetic appeal of a micro-rotor, but presumably that didn't matter before the advent of display backs several decades after micro-rotors appeared on the scene. Also, thanks for the kind words about the Chopard 1860/2. The watch in th... 

The main thing is to thin the movement. If you only have one barrel and you can get the gear train and escapement all to one side, you have about 25% of the movement left over that's unused. Here, in that 25% you either put in a second barrel or a micro r... 

Other than Laurent Ferrier, do you know of any independents/small brands who've dabbled in micro-rotors in recent years? Yes, PT for the 1860/2. Also WG/salmon dial. "One wear, one spare." ...  

Parmigiani Fleurier, Patek has a new one coming you can see it in the 5235 annual calendar, a bunch of companies like MING are contracting movement makers like Schwartz Etienne to make micro rotor watches, the Bulgari Octo Finissimo micro rotor is still f...  

I am a super fan of the Cal 240. Which I consider as one of the nicest micro rotor, along with GP ( Tourbillon with gold bridges ), Laurent Ferrier, and... The LUC 96! In terms of finishings, I would rate the LUC 96 above, as every part is finished in thi... 

I like the 1.96 because I respect Karl and his commitment to get it done right in the 1990s with LUC. Took guts and brains and $$$. I also respect what was done with the patek 240. I believe is that a chap named Gérard Berret from Patek designed the movem... 

65 hours power reserve is definitely impressive for such a small movement such as the LUC 96.

comparison of two impressive movements. Patek in the late 70s and LUC in the late 90s. They both represent the resolve to forge on with mechanical movements and both have been suitably celebrated in your report. Bravo 👏

One thing to watch out for is the rotor issues on the OG movement in the Octo. Mine stopped working and apparently it was a common problem. They have changed the movement now though.

Still works. But sometimes I walk 15,000+ steps in a day, and I put the watch down at 9PM at night, and when I wake up, I see the watch stopped around 2AM or 3AM at night. Did they fix your watch or did they put in the updated movement?

They hadn’t updated the movement then.

I didn’t know the history of the Chopard LUC 96 movement. I have come to be more and more impressed with Chopard and this further cements the respect and justifiable admiration for their pieces.

The Chopard movement is definitely quite special. And although the watch is steel, considering the 1860 model and the Alpine Eagle model are both in that 25,000 US dollar range, I'd say they're pretty fairly priced. A steel Patek Philippe Nautilus would c... 

I haven't been able to do so myself, Chk

Most collectors, even those with multi million dollar collections, do not know the difference between a hair spring with a Breguet overcool and a flat hairspring. And it's quite a significant difference.