patrick_y
[PuristSPro Moderator]
33546
Indeed. Gently used watches from great Maisons can be great deals.
Unfortunately, not as much labor as one thinks goes into making one of these expensive watches. Especially since they're mostly mass produced. So I hope people don't have unrealistic expectations. Also, people don't realize, production is only a part of the equation. Remember; 40% of the value of a watch is created by the retailer! Around 7-8% of the value of the watch goes to the landlord of the store! Depending on where you buy the watch; 1-3% of the value goes into the credit card swiping.
A Bentley car takes around 200 man hours to produce. And retailers/dealers are only given a fairly small margin. R&D costs are difficult to calculate in this though - as they do share that with other car brands.
Thank you for sharing your very valid (frankly, I concur with your opinions) opinions!
Manual Watchmaking: A Lost Concept; And An Introduction to the Time Aeon Foundation
Moderator Patrick_y looks at the current offering of watches on the market and sees a troubling trend that he identifies as the tragedy of mass manufacturing. Increasing industrialization of the Swiss watch industry and the massive scale of automation has...
What an excellent and substantive post.
This subject matter is perpetually swirling around in my brain. As in, do I really want a 'regular' Reverso or Overseas as opposed to a completely hand-finished tourbillon etc. version; and then of course we have the Urwerks and Berthouds of the world.......
It's some heavy reading!
For a heavy topic, I did try to keep it to around 1000 words. I really really like simple watches. Sometimes having a bunch of sub dials on the watch doesn't necessarily contribute to a higher elegance. Sometimes less is more. And I'm finding plenty of ve...
Great stuff as always...
... Ferdinand Berthoud has fascinated me since they started. I need to keep playing the lottery...
I'd acquire a Ferdinand Berthoud!
They're a little big for my wrist though - might need to wait until they come out with a smaller version.
I know they are big...
...but I think I could pull it off. Have never seen one live though...
Thanks for the thought provoking thread
I enjoyed it and am currently waiting for a few artisanal watches from Switzerland. This could take a few years but I'm happy to wait for them while enjoying those that I already own. I do wear my other regular mass-produced watches occasionally but the a...
Thank YOU for reading and having your thoughts provoked!
Most of us collect watches for fun, but we don't really think about it in detail all that much. I'm glad that you read this article and gave it some thought! Good luck on your new watches to be! I hope they come soon! I can't say I wear artisan watches 95...
Thank you Patrick for this in depth analysis
of the evolution of watchmaking. The only thing I would maybe add is that, among regular production watches, I tend to see some significant differences between the more industrial ones (like my regular Alpine Eagle) and the ones which have a certain level...
In fact, samwan and ambel have one!
It was great meeting Yosuke Sekiguchi himself and trying on his watches, but I unfortunately can’t afford them and he’s the only one for now to be able to service them…
I hope you are able to get one someday!
I hope you are able to procure one in a fiscally responsible manner someday!
Great and interesting post .
Like you mentioned for me the most interesting watches are from independent watchmakers. If we talk about bigger brands i still think Breguet was and still is doing a great job
I concur. Breguet does do a great job!
Almost all the Breguet dials (enamel and guilloche) are made by one person in artisan fashion. The movements can be made by one individual or can be made in an assembly line. It's just not popular because the design is a little too traditional - when peop...
Very interesting and informative post.
The more time I spend on this site the more I learn and I realise just how little I really know. As I have said in another thread I never realised just how many truly remarkable and talented independent watchmakers there are that make such a wide range an...
Thank you for your kind words!
You're exactly right about that word Profit! I don't know if you watch Star Trek, but I sometimes watch it (lots of good morals in that TV show), and I still get a laugh whenever I hear the Ferengi rules of acquisition (Ferengi is an alien race who care p...
Hi patrick_y
Big Star Trek fan all the way from the start, I think you will find the Ferengi are actually settled on Earth and running the entire luxury goods industry. LOL. Thanks for your kind words I'm not sure I left my mark but I sure had fun trying, Marc
I'm Laughing out Loud!
The luxury industry is exactly the industry the Ferengi would be interested in on Earth! Oh, your words definitely left their mark! Thanks again!
Thank you M4!
I'm imagining a very special watch or clock in your future someday! Something truly special! There was once this beautiful Parmigiani clock that I once saw... Or, maybe you'll be attracted to something Parmigiani has restored... Some amazing automatons.
OooooHhhh! WooW! Looking forward to your impressions!
What a treat! A team member at PF knows me and my preferences, and predicts that my watch and clock evolution will be heading in their direction in a few years. I told that team member, there is a good chance that they are correct.
You mentioned urwerk and MB&F
They do use CNC made parts as well as third parts movements. Does it affect the final result? Not at all, because the idea and the execution is always unique. Time Aeon foundation aims to preserve old techniques, but I always wonder to which extent is han...
Yes! Urwerk and MB&F definitely use CNC machines for many of their watch parts.
Yes! You are correct! Even Greubel Forsey, Montblanc Villeret, and many other small brands use CNC machines to make components. Time Aeon Foundation's purpose is as you said. As for the importance of hand finishing - you raise a good point. One hundred ye...
I'm finally home, so I can write in details
I guess we all love a good finishing, because it shows attention to details and care. But it's getting tougher to spot the difference between an hand made anglage and a machine made with a simple loupe. You're absolutely right, finishing had a mechanical ...
Thank you for coming back and following up! So true...
Very true indeed. Spotting real anglage and comparing it to more industrial anglage is getting harder and harder. Even I'm not sure, and that's looking under a loupe! And yes... You get an A+ in consumer psychology, a large percentage of the population - ...
Fantastic Post Sir 👍🙏, I agree with you about traditional horology vs. Industrialized horology and horology as an art form
I commend the efforts of the Time Aeon Foundation.
Thank you Sir!
As one of our early members, back when PuristSPro was in its very early years, this is all old news to you. I'm sure you saw this coming and had this epiphany many years ago.
Very kind. Thank you Salman for the kind words!
What about you? Anything on your mind lately?
Why I love this community
I have been lurking on here for a while. It is for these kinds of posts. Thank you.
I'm honored to read your first post Frizal! Thank you for the kind words!
Hope to meet you and other members of our community in person someday!
Outstanding read, great info, and why we LOVE WPS. ❤️
Agree, you wrist guys are falling behind with wall clocks, table clocks, tall/Grandfather/mother clocks. Wrist-based timepieces are nice, but then what? PS: And a great music system at home. Trust me, nothing more romantic than serenading.... or Friday pa...
My Music Machine 3 "music system" is sitting in its box unfortunately.
I've got one of these sitting in a basement. I need to get a plexiglass cover made for it - as I really don't display it because I'm afraid of all the dust! ...
Pretty please get the display case made my friend. Sherman sits under a glass 'globe' and it happy :)
All the glorious music you could be enjoying........
Funny. I listen to the YouTube video more than the real thing!
I really enjoy the video! www.youtube.com
Will have to read this carefully....
How much modern hardware and software is "allowed" in traditional watchmaking??? How much balance between tradition and reliability?
Good question...
So... If you look at the exact wording of the press release; the impression I'm getting is that the manufacturing process of making the parts and making the watch is all using very non-computerized parts. BUT! That doesn't mean that they're not using comp...
I would agree.
I think computer aided design should be permitted. Just the manufacturing part should be as traditional as what is reasonably possible. At every point in human kind, we have had an improvement in technology. And our progression in humankind should be allo...
Thanks for such a great post, Patrick.
I’ve enjoyed all the responses as well. There is something very special and very appealing about real craftsmanship. When you spend unreasonable amounts of money on objects that have been rendered obsolete, it makes us feel good to think that there is som...
Thank you for reading and commenting!
Yes, a lot of these responses are all very well thought out! It was supposed to be a thought-stirring post, but I'm even more impressed with the super thoughtful and deep responses! And you're absolutely right. The industry wants the world to think that t...
Yes, my patience was running thin after a year.
They have so few watchmakers at Villeret and none of them are dedicated to service, so it takes a long while to get your watch looked after. You ask some very good questions about “middle ground” watches. Value becomes even more difficult to measure when ...
Indeed. Gently used watches from great Maisons can be great deals.
Unfortunately, not as much labor as one thinks goes into making one of these expensive watches. Especially since they're mostly mass produced. So I hope people don't have unrealistic expectations. Also, people don't realize, production is only a part of t...
Great points!
Always enjoy reading your posts, Patrick. Thanks for all you do to contribute to this place.
Great information and thoughtful opinions.
As far as Urwerk goes I like the 202. I have always liked the rotating cubes more than the discs. I love the Ludovic Ballouard upside down watch, would love to have one. In the mass produced watch category, I like Minerva movements I have seen in some Mon...
Thank you for the kind words!
Yes, the opinions and comments here are very well thought and high quality. Thank you for contributing your thoughts as well! The Montblanc Villeret pieces are absolutely top quality. Top top top. Higher than typical Geneva Seal quality. The balance wheel...
I'm just having a little chat with the owner of the NAISSANCE D'UNE MONTRE 2
On IG. No idea if he is on Watchprosite, I'll ask him Would be great if he joins this forum and give us an insight on this magnificent unique piece (and other interesting watches he owns)
I really regret not bidding on the Naissance dune Montre 2.
Such a cool watch. And it went for a "somewhat" reasonable price! Big congrats to you for being in contact with the fella. I don't know if I know him or not. But what a watch! A true watch appreciator too! I'm sure the conversations are fun and when it co...
A wonderful article, but I fail to see the "troubling trend"
Since the second half of the 19th century, the watch industry was exactly that: an industry based on division of labor and mass production, versus artisan pieces made on individual order. Otherwise, the watch as a cultural good would have been dead. And t...