Darren
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As Chief Justice Stewart once famously said - "I know it....
when I see it." I think that's the best I can do to define who falls into the "independent" and "mainstream" categories.
At one end of the spectrum you have watchmakers such as Christian Klings, are are independent in every sense of the word. He makes pretty much everything with his own 2 hands. The very definition of independent.
At the other end of the spectrum you have companies like Frank Muller, Roger Dubuis, Daniel Roth, etc. All likely started as independents, but somewhere along the way clearly morphed into mainstream businesses - in particular when the independent founder parted ways with the company.
Then there's the vast middle. Journe probably fits here. So does Richard Mille. Clearly independents at launch, but quite a bit larger now, with boutiques, distribution, etc. Owners are still rather involved, but maybe too large with too many folks on staff to retain the "independent" label.
I suppose for me, to be an independent, the enterprise should be small, with limited production each year and with significant participation from the watchmaker founder of the marque. Smaller watchmakers such as DeWitt (founded by a collector I believe), Louise Moniet (sp?), etc. are not independents in my view .... just smaller, targeted watch makers.
Anyways, just my 2 cents. Fun topic to ponder.
Darren
When does an independant become mainstream..?
I have done a couple of searches here and found a few threads which quote independants and mainstream brands, but I havn't found a discusion on when an independant turns into a mainstream brand..? Would the shift be the size of the company, number of empl...
Several Factors..
They may be but not limited to: 1) When the distribution is in every major capital in the world, they are especially mainstream if they have stand alone Boutiques with only 10 watches on display and the watch you want is sold out and they don't know anyth...
I agree with your #3
I think that is spot on!! As a gauge for when an Independent is getting to a size that it's not about "A" watchmaker anymore, but rather a company of watchmakers and other administration staff, that's when #3 customer service start to be affected. I belie...
Yes not 'a' single watchmaker...
but just several people assembling watches...that's a good thought. Yours, Andy.
that would mean that people like Roger Smith or Kari Voutilainen are mainstream as
they have watchmakers working for them
Good point....
and I suppose if the company still keeps going when they retire then that might make it mainstream....is part of the allure of an independant the thought that the name on the tin also assembled it..? Unfortunately as you point out even the independants ha...
Does he really "take his time"?
Good points you've raised Alex, and as you can see, there really isn't a concrete definition. You're right I've never emailed Mr Dufour But the others I've contacted are truly a joy to communicate with (eg. Kari, Habrings). I don't mean anything more than...
I guess I've been lucky.
I had an enjoyable experience working win the Habrings (though I bought from their West Coast AD) and also was very satisfied with service received by Audemars Piguet when my Royal Oak went funny. They were both attentive, personally reached out (AP's cas...
Sounds like you have experience in this field...
but I won't ask about which brands have done this to you..!! It obviously isn't as cut and dry as I first thought. Yours, Andy.
I had a discussion about this
with another Kari (Voutilainen) during IGOTT. He basically agreed that service of independents might be a problem. At the same time he said that he's trying to build his watches in such a clear way that they can always be serviced by a competent watchmake...
I think that says it all...
when an independant puts thought into it. I had noticed on RM and MB&F that they use special screws so even if a watchmaker fancies his chances he would still have to buy a special tool just to get the watch apart or even change a strap. I'm not the o...
Good Question!!!
I am not sure there is an answer except in each aficiando's mind. It was brought up in discussion at IGOTT2 but for the life of me, I cannot remember the answer except I remember it being rather vague.
It does apear to be vague...
and definately no specific answer. I'm sure at one time PP, AP, Rolex etc were technically independant...but then got bigger and kept going. Maybe that's what happens..? Yours, Andy.
LOL...interesting...
but does that also mean PP, Rolex and a few others (AP.?) are therefore not mainstream..? I don't believe they have sold out and are still run by their families...I did try to Google to find out for sure but couldn't find any actual link to either Swatch ...
Hm, good point Andy
I guess what I mean was that when brand is sold to these companies, it ceases to be independent. But it's true that PP, AP, etc are self-owned. Yet do we think of them as independent? No, we do not. This is interesting... But PP and AP are not included in...
I agree...
I'm beginning to think there is no clear defined cut off point....but like you say when they are thought of as a company then the name or brand surpasses the person who started it. I think if the company stops when the person who started it retires then i...
great question! I would think that it is a question of will. Does the independent
want to be recognized as a person or as a brand (therefore mainstream). Journe is now a brand so is Urwerk but Voutilainen even if he has a team of 11-12 still would be considered as an independent as he as a person is immediately linked to his watches. I...
Maybe if the name continues....
after the original company developer, or name behind the brand, retires....then it becomes more than just the man/woman who started it..? It appears to be a very grey area....surely the likes of AP and Rolex etc were originally independant..? Just somebod...
Loaded terms
What is a so-called "independent" independent of compared to a non-independent? The cynic in me reckons one of the major differences is in the amount of cash dedicated to marketing, publicity and events, which suggests that the key difference is the need ...
Good point...marketing would seperate them...
then you could say that the they have turned into a company and not a person. Cheers, Andy.
I don't see as many "independents" as true independents...
From Merriam-Webster: in·de·pend·ent /?ind??pend?nt/ Noun: An independent person or body. Adjective: Free from outside control; not depending on another's authority. Other sources define independent basically the same, but in different words. So it would ...
I think you are on the right track
our independents' panel discussion at IGOTT2 seemed to agree that they build watches to please themselves, not a customer-driven market research report. A few of them will even contemplate (not necessarily agree) or consider customer input. Max said he bu...
Interesting...so independants are also...
mavericks..!!! I like this take on what makes an independant an independant Yours, Andy.
Andy, thanks for the topic ...
and thanks to all for their replies - quite interesting and fun. Independants - is there a need of in-house production or is it possible to out-source (nearly) everything? Are they allowed to use "mainstream" movements - in general? How many "mainstream" ...
All valid points Oliver...
but no answers I'm afraid..!! It does seem that some makes have crossed the boundry from independant to mainstream but there is no agreement as to when it occured..there just seems to be a general agreement that they are now. Everybody's views are very in...
"no answers I'm afraid..!!" A difficult or lets say ...
philosophical question isn´t easy to answer, is it? What I had in mind were interesting projects like Ochs und Junior ... Marc Brogsitter ... . Are they true independants from your point of view? To me it is not that important, as long as I fall in l...
Rethinking this a bit...
After thinking about this again and revisiting my earlier response, I think I need to modify my definition. I decided to look at this from a purely personal point of view... my personal point of view. I realized that if I purchased a watch that was suppos...
You just ruled out virtually all the independents
>> I realized that if I purchased a watch that was supposed to be from an independent, and I then found >> out that the person who's name is on the dial did not actually make the components and then assemble and >> adjust it himself...I would feel cheated...
I suppose that would be the ultimate independant...
but I can't think of any. I'd feel cheated if somebody just had a case made, designed a face and had it made, then popped in an ETA movement totally unmodified and called it their own piece...now I can name some of those..!! Cheers, Andy.
Which makers made EVERYTHING themselves?
I'll start the list of those who made everything: - George Daniels How about people who made virtually everything but may have bought in a few components such as balance springs, jewels etc: - Derek Pratt - Many of the greats of 50-150 years ago such as P...
As Chief Justice Stewart once famously said - "I know it....
when I see it." I think that's the best I can do to define who falls into the "independent" and "mainstream" categories. At one end of the spectrum you have watchmakers such as Christian Klings, are are independent in every sense of the word. He makes pre...
This seems to be the consensus....
everybody seems to have similar but subtly different reasons and I think everybody is correct....then when all those criteria are met then you are truly mainstream as everybody agrees. Cheers, Andy.
What does it mean when a forum is removed....;o)
Lets not go there..! I'm beginning to think everybody here is correct then when all the above criteria are met then the independant has truly become mainstream in everybody's eye's....the final cherry on the cake is, as you say, when a forum is dedicated ...
Impossible to be truly independent
It is next to impossible to be truly independent. Even speaking with AHCI candidate Eva Leube, who works from a small room in her house, she commented on how ‘dependent’ she is on suppliers of raw materials. There are some things, such as crystals, that s...
Great response Andrew...
when I first posted the question to be honest I was expecting a reply which indicated when an independant had achieved A), B), and C) then the independant had become mainstream. This thread seems to have proved the opposite in that nobody seems to agree o...
It's in the small details
Being independant and mainstream are not mutually exclusive. Rolex is as mainstream a watch company as you will ever find as they are a household name the world over, even to people who wouldn't know the difference between a quartz or automatic watch if t...
"The ‘stamp’ of the original independent watchmaker" - the key!
Dear Andrew, EXCELLENT RESPONSE! I think your reference to the ‘stamp’ of the original independent watchmaker is a very significant one, as this is what imbues soul into a timepiece - in contrast to what could be called 'board design' where ut...