bart1
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PLEASE read & check-out my pictures...
Mike was kind enough to assist me by posting my photos for our discussion. (I have not been able to add my photos to my postings)
Please note, my photos & my notations coincide exactly with those posted by Raphmeister on 1-25-09 (see above)
HOWEVER, my photos are of a different watch.
With all due respect to the artisans who create hand made watches ... whom of us doesn't love the macro photography that we see on the collector sites... there is an intrinsic beauty to a straight line --- an sublime elegance to the perfect cut of the red painted tip of the JLC second hand.
Check-out the engraving on a Lang & Sohne bridge.
Given 2 similar watches... same watchmaker... one containing an imperfection of the watchmaker... say just a small slip of the engraving tool.
Is there ANY one of you who would choose the watch with the "charming" imperfection?
Aside... from the esthetic perfection (which is probably why we relate to the watches in the first place) how does this speak to the watch and it's long term "investment quality"?
Photo quality, light refraction, light reflection may all play a part in our observations. (Note closely the macro photography in the above referenced posts - the photos seem very good & straight on withoutreflection.) What is the truth?
What ever the number... 2 or, 5 or, 20 watches with crooked hands, IF THIS EXISTS in fact, this is an imperfection in finish and it is not very "charming" to me. I would not wear it (it would drive me nuts!) I would not lock it away in a safe deposit box for my sons to inherit and I certainly would not be able to sell it (even with an apology to the buyer).
If this error exists then it needs to be immediately corrected by the watchmaker. If it isn't recalled & corrected than the watchmaker does not deserve to stay in business.
We are the guys shelling out the big bucks - we deserve uncompromised integrity of design, execution & conscience from the watchmaker.
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voutilainen's BIG flaw -picky me?
I note that the two sides of the second hand are not die-cut as radials of the (same) correct centerpoint . In every case, the second hand appears crooked when observed straight-on. This (to me) is a huge & obvious QC flaw. I can not understand how Voutil...
there it is...
I do not own the watch. I have been researching several designs that I like -potentially for my next purchase. I noticed the Voutilainen flaw on their website (even with the angle view) & then I researched further as at first, I thought that my eyes were ...
No flaw
The shafts either side of the centre are completely aligned. The circled part of the short end of the seconds' hand is asymmetrical, and I believe it is so by design. This may give the impression that you refer to. Kind regards....
I think exactly the same than BCL.
Moreover, if there is a topic we can talk about during hours with Voutilainen, it's the hands. Kari dedicates a lot of time building them. Each hand requires a lot of work from him. I would add that we are talking here about hand-made parts. Fr.Xavier
guys,
i'm sure we all love kari's work. its amazing stuff... but tell me how that hand in the pic below is straight? the red line is added by me. I assure you the red line added is a straight line. i'm just saying, maybe its good to be a little objective oops f...
This one is apparently not aligned.
You are right that this second hand is not aligned. I do not think the misalignment of both shafts is a design element. I used the above picture, on which I took you based your statements, and it shows both ends aligned and the off radial circle at the ti...
Thanks for clarifying with this picture
The seconds hand doesn't look straight to me, and even if the hand is bent downwards, at that angle, there's no way it is straight. It's funny to see when someone points out anything negative of the so called "gods" - Dufour or Voutilainen - that everyone...
We're talking about hand made pieces here.
There WILL be inperfections on a hand made watch. Robots will make a perfect case, perfect hands, perfect dials. I'll buy a Rolex for that.
forget it!
these are die-cut... not handmade pieces. If they were handmade this would have been corrected -the mistake would not be replicated as it is! The issue is them spending the few hundred bucks that it would take to make the correction in their tooling. BG
Precision engineering?
I happen to be both a collector AND, a manufacturer/designer (not watches)... that's possibly why my esthetic is uncompromising. After 30 or 40 years producing precision products, such an obvious flaw is, well... sophomoric & obvious. non-matching, radial...
The off radial circles are definitely part of the design
Kari bases the idea of his hands from exaggerated Breguet hands: Breguet hands are known for their off-radial circles and the pointed tips. I guess nobody complained about the misaligned hand tips and tails until today. Kari most likely didn't notice it h...
Are you truly viewing the hands "straight-on"?
I have some pics stored at home of the hands viewed from very angle differences. I'll post them later tonight. Camera and lighting angles will also affect how things appear in pictures. We just had a huge controversy about the St Gallen Purists watch. Be ...
another photo... HELP!
I will postanother photo if someone can tell me exactly how to post a photo... ?? I have been clicking on the "New Beta Image Uploader" however it is a pop-up & doesn't tell me how to upload a photo! HELP! Thanks, BG
Simple. Here are the instructions from our Help Desk
Attention Mac users: you must have the latest javascript and javascript turned on. Cookies enabled too. Our software team has been working hard to create our own photo hosting solution for the PuristS community. Please give our Photo Uploader a try as it ...
But wait, look at these pics from the same session:
No touchups or any post processing done on these pics to show how lighting and exposure affects the way the hands look. The hands taper down to the tip and they are hand filed on top to create a curved surface. As you can see the light and shadows refecti...
Bart's pictures and his captions
As an aside, I am not sure where these pictures are from and who they are by. Bart, I would suggest you give credit to where these photos were taken from. If you took these pics, it may be best to post the specific settings of the camera and if any photos...
~ my primary issue ~ & thank you to ALL!
thank you Mike, pplater, cen@jkt & others who "understand" what I am pointing out. My point is that we pay a high price for perfection and we deserve to receive it... 100% uncompromised. If there is an problem issue with an element so simple as the esthet...
Have you seen the picture posted by Allen?
Is it possible for you to use Allen's picture as a demonstration? I don't want to be rude but I still don't really see where you are coming from base on the image PPlater posted. Could it be a distortion due to the macro photogrpahy or is it something tha...
Now, Now...
CL, I understand your points and Barts as well. Every watch from an independent varies from sample to sample. Without macros we would never notice these subtle differences but these are the quirks we've come to appreciate in our watches since they are tru...
Sorry if I'm misunderstood...you don't have
to be a owner of Kari's watches to make worthy comment. Not at all But I would think for someone to make such strong and commited comment to at least view the watch in person. That's all I mean, nothing else. If one is very meticulous and tends to love pr...
I know what you are getting at CL
unfortunately I think the words and tone of a few posts in this thread (from everyone including Bart) could have been better chosen to focus on the watches soley without any personal implications towards any of the posters or Kari. I tend to agree with yo...
It seems this whole brouhaha can be distilled into a few basic points
Hi, Is imperfection, on a case by case basis, possible? Yes. probable? yes. Would a watchmaker with the integrity of KV correct it if it were brought to their attention? Yes. Was Bart right in pointing out the possibility that there may be defects in KV p...
I would love to see one of the watches in person
I would love to put this matter to rest. Perhaps someone has an example for viewing in S.CA? BG
PLEASE read & check-out my pictures...
Mike was kind enough to assist me by posting my photos for our discussion. (I have not been able to add my photos to my postings) Please note, my photos & my notations coincide exactly with those posted by Raphmeister on 1-25-09 (see above) HOWEVER, my ph...
Bart, please try...
to separate the discussion points (you have several valid ones) from the strident, torch and pitchfork screed. Would you try to do that, please? It would make this discussion much more productive, and probably would also result in a much more substantive ...
Response by Guardnut
Whew, finally...thank you TM for making the point so well. I was getting a headache. This message has been edited by guardnut on 2009-01-27 16:33:56 message moved to appropriate location-Mike
Hi TM
I am really not trying to harangue. Frankly, I love the design of the watch and I would own one, so long as it doesn't look like it had any imperfections. And, I am not saying unequivically that there IS an imperfection... only that it "looks" like there ...
It's straight, honest
Bart -- As described in perhaps too much detail in my post below, the second hand on this watch (it's mine, so I should know) is dead straight. Much farther up in this thread, someone actually superimposed a dashed line down the seconds hand on the same p...
Weighing in
You have all been spared -- as I was finishing a very long response to this thread, my computer crashed! A quick summary (I'm too old to start again...): 1. My guess is that the "brown face" watch had a crooked seconds hand at the time of the photo. I'd a...