Hororgasm
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Real Politik
i think most of us forgot that MSRP stands for Manufacturers SUGGESTED Retail Price.... as such it MAY differ from the actual market price. in many markets for commodities and physical markets, theere is always some sort of MSRP, except that trading is done round a premium or discount around the "MSRP", reflecting market demand and supply, or the lack or or excess of of either.
i have(sadly) paid above list for a APROO before, and i have enjoyed discounts as much as 75% off during a AD sale, as such i am ambivalent. i have been "advised" by a friendly salesperson that i can get a very desirable PP, if i drop more money to buy a PP calatrava with NO discount(usually discounted), thus making up for "lost margin". However, i am realistic. if a AD can sell above list, why should he sell at MSRP, let alone below it? he could easily trade it into the grey market for that premium, without risking their dealership with that brand. i may sulk, swear and curse the AD and their sales staff, but heck, it would just sully my ownership and purchase experience. what i have issue with, beyond the AD inter -branch store politics, is the BS sales pitch, disguised behind a facade of dealership respectability and artificially low inventory levels(esp fr PPs n Rolexes n PAMs). i would rather the sales manager pull me aside and read me the Real Economik Act of demand and supply!!!( i have since established a few sales managers that i implicitedly trust and their without sugar coating sales straight talk with me)
unfortuantely for PP, other brands from IWCs to JLCs to whatever, are "heavily" discounted at the ADs, esp some of the starters brands. as such, we grow up an a horological environment that heavy in excess of 30% discount is the "norm". when we reach the "level" of PPs, we wonder why no discounts!! for the record, i have never bought a PP from a AD, because they are always "outta stock". all the PPs i have ever owned are either bought BNIB fm grey dealers or preowned, cant swallow the low level or no discounts given.
instead of ranting and raving abt the topic, which have been discussed to death, why not think of it as a unqiue PP buying experience!!!
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💰1729 Marketplace Listings for Patek Philippe›Patek Philippe Calatrava · 2 for sale · 8309 discussions›
How many people have had ADs demand above retail and is their a Patek policy on this
This message has been edited by Dje on 2010-04-09 23:57:34
Unscrupulous AD's
It has happened to me twice. One AD asked for a premium and another asked that I pay full MSRP as well as purchase an extra PP that I did not want or buy $30k worth of jewelry. I declined both requests and do not do any business with either. My understand...
Only becuase they know there are those out there
who are willing to pay above list so in a way, buyers have themselves to blame.
my policy for dealing with ADs
I never buy something extra that I don't want, and if some AD (Patek or otherwise) tells me to buy something else so I can have the privilege of buying the watch I really want, I never set foot in that AD again. There are too many ADs out there to care ab...
That much?
I never pay more than 20% of list...or I just don't buy. ;-) This message has been edited by ThomasM on 2010-04-07 11:31:45
I simply wish I had your connections....
I have shopped extensively for Pateks, at least for the two I have purchased. And I have been unable to find a dealer that was willing to sell them at the discounts you mention. I am envious. Glenn
Did you still end up buying one from them?
If so, congrats and you have made a choice right for you. I just wanted to use this to highlight the fact that if you did buy one at list or above, then you have sent a strong signal to them that they can continue to do this. But if you did not and over t...
I did buy...
I did indeed buy my two Pateks. But I did not pay over MSRP. In fact, I did get a small discount in the 10% range. But I was unable to get anywhere near the 30-40% described in the post to which I replied. And I believe the fact that I got a discount refl...
Wow.....
You get 30-40% off for Pateks???? your AD must really love you..... Even ADs relations do not get a 40% discount..... I wish that I had such a friendly Patek AD.....
(Sorry double post - see down bellow)
Could it be that it is all about hypocrisy patek.watchprosite.com This message has been edited by PoyFR on 2010-04-08 00:47:29
Do not waste your time and energy, keep on walking till the decent one
It happened to me too, a few times, on one occasion I waited over a whole year for a piece, on its arrival I ended to decline because I refused to disburse quiet a cash sum over list-price that this authorized outfit wanted. Simply walk away. And, do not ...
I understand the principle...
Hi, Arthur, Yves, I understand the principle of "price gouging" and the distastefulness of paying "over list" but since you (and I) don't have any issues paying UNDER list, I sometimes wonder, what is the unimpeachable principle from on high that paying o...
Indeed
Hi, I agree with your point Thomas. A watch has a MSRP. Once you consider that such watch should not be sold at the MSRP for some reasons (availability, demand, rotation of stock, fashion,....), why should this only end with a lower price? If you ask an A...
Thanks, dje.
With all due respect to PoyFR and Arthur, of course. We are having a discussion about different points of view, not passing judgement... Cheers, TM
Well.....
on the other hand... it really depends on the watch companies agreement with the AD... if the company says that AD should not overcharge..... then they should not..... having said that..... you are absolutely right.... it is your decision whether to buy o...
clearly no one wants to directly address my very simple question -
Hi, Pink, This comment is obviously not directed at you, only, as I've asked this many, many times in this thread and no one has directly addressed this, who disagrees and thinks buying at a discount is okay but not paying over list - "if the company says...
I will never have a problem tipping the doorman
An authorised dealer is chosen to be to be a representative of a brand in a given location, As I understand it that is the job endorsed when the agent is appointed. I chose not to believe that any brand would ask their authorized agents to exercise discri...
Then we should all pay AD's exactly MSRP, not one penny more, not one penny less, non?
Hi, Yves, "An authorised dealer is chosen to be to be a representative of a brand in a given location, As I understand it that is the job endorsed when the agent is appointed. I chose not to believe that any brand would ask their authorized agents to exer...
I have deep regrets
I have learn through the years not to believe rumours, rumours are often if not always serving one or more person interests. In the case of that 195, it was said that a huge price had been paid, first it was not my business, and more importantly I did not...
Its not a case of wrong or right for me Thomas
Ads do it becuase there know they can get away with it... how do they know... some for reasons known to them will pay X% over list for whatever and hence they have bred and encouraged that practice and if this makes the buyer happy (it sure makes the sell...
You know the problem with discussing religion and trying to get to a "rational" point?
Hi, Arthur, Because it requires a "leap of faith" which fundamentally refuses to be boxed in by reason or rationality. "value" and "price" are similar. I feel a Lange Turbograph is worth $1000 to me (I can't wear it, it is too big) Others feel it is worth...
Ahh yes.. I just walk away too
that's actually the best way to deal with them and I do tell friends as well and whatever happens after happens... At the end of the day, buyer and seller decide and both have to be willing and if that is at list of X% above list... so be it... both are (...
i think this is a difficult question...
It is correct that you do not have to buy the watch from the AD. You have the right to go to another AD and buy elsewhere. You will, of course, do that if you can get the watch elsewhere for the list price. But IF the watch is selling at a premium elsewhe...
Excuse me...
But I am shocked at some of the comments here. An authorised dealer is not an auction house. They have certain responsibilities associated with that function - such as, for example, an agreement with Patek Philippe to make a certain profit from watch sale...
paulus...
you may be right...if there is a specified contract that states a specific profit margin, then you ARE right. However, I do not know that to be the case. If its loose, then by implication that leaves room for the AD to adjust as he sees fit. I just dont k...
As with any product the price paid is always based on supply and demand...
MSRP is only a sugessted list price. I had many debates on the subject and here is the bottom line. Any AD ( Rolex, is the exception, most of the time) can charge whatever they decide and do not have to answer to anyone. So it is up to the buyer to pay, w...
it would be nice, but
They are no business contracts by which an AD must obey to a price structure. Of course MSRP or Suggested retail prices are published, but an authorized dealer can chose to ignore all of it and set his own prices. If the authorized dealer decides to sell ...
Actually I think there are contractual stipulations on maximum discounts
to be given (not sure) but whether they are adhered to or not is another story. I don't think there is any guideline preventing an AD from selling at any level above the max discount level and since thsi is in the Patek forum, I'll cite Patek and if I don...
Impossible in certain markets (against local laws) and not in most markets
that I am aware of. There are other carrots and sticks to "manage" street price, but I'm not sure contractual stipulations are one of them. ADVERTISING certain discounted prices is prohibited in certain markets. Cheers, TM
I'm sure that a lot of folks experienced this. Having
been an AD for 27 years until Jan '08, it was never my policy to charge in excess of suggested list price on any piece, limited editions, hard to get pieces, etc. but at the same time, I did not discount the watches either. In fact, I would not accept any...
Bravo! Alas...
it seems we are in a minority. And of course, so as NOT to be a hypocrite, I do admit that I do avail myself of discounts, hence I have no grounds to bemoan dealers asking above MSRP. In that context, it is a "free market" for sellers to ask what they wil...
Seems that it is a day for me to have regrets
Being that in many ways I have for a long time be around watches, I can tell you that you are an exception, reading your lines makes me regret not have been a resident of your area. Thank you for your post here and thank you for your 27 years of service.
No regrets, mon ami, we know each other now, don't we?
Let's remember the past, but look to the future!
Well from my side, I sure since do
and to prove it, here is an offer for you, if you do miss that 195 (or any form of regret...) , here is my offer to you, you can have mine for however long you wish to enjoy or amuse yourself with. Take me on this, anytime.
no regrets, my friend...
when I "help someone out" and leave 8 thousand dollars on the table (the retail price, which is what I paid, and EXACTLY what I sold it for, and mostly because the buyer "was too late" and begged me to help him find one, vs then market price) and all I as...
well, know that I have on a few occasion suffered
The very same type of experiences. Kindness is often rewarded with a punches in our faces. Better be nasty ;-) till we find our likes… This message has been edited by PoyFR on 2010-04-07 12:15:48
Better be nasty like my Dédé?
Who I can say has always been very fair to my knowledge... The only guy I could get a PP at list price when everybody was excited by Speculation... My Dédé... Best, Nicolas This message has been edited by amanico on 2010-04-07 11:52:37
Hey you want me to punch you in the face (lol)
So I can apply for a PP Dealership and you will vouch for me?... anyway anything will be better than your local salon. This message has been edited by PoyFR on 2010-04-07 11:55:42
This is great to hear Whit but in my experience, you are the exception to the rule.
Now that is just my very short experience. Unfortunately, there are too many ADs that have very different pricing structures for the SAME WATCH depending on the customer, time of the month/year, whether they will be able to extend their exclusive distribu...
Believe me, I like to get a good price just like anyone
else, but as a dealer, I felt obligated to provide a level of service beyond the price of the watch alone, service that should be expected from a such a luxury product . Service that I, myself would expect had I paid the type of money for these watches......
Again, very good to hear these thoughts whit!
And IF all ADs had your pricing policy as their business bible, competition on pre and after sales service will then be more important BUT unfortunately for some on both sides of the equation, as Thomas mentioned, its like trying to stop flippers from fli...
The "service" topic is not one of simply repairing or
sending the watch in for routine service, at least it wasn't for me. Just a few examples of what I'm talking about, in "07, I had three pieces come in for service which were all out of the warranty period, but not by much 6-10 months or so...anyway the th...
Wow! I'm not sure you should have done that and that it is right but...
once again, I think you stand up in a distribution scenario that sits around. What you did to absorb the cost is very commendable but for me, I would not have expected you to do that. Its not good for your business but clearly for you to have done it seve...
Prices for PP
Hi, I have read several of the comments regarding over retail charges for PP. I have a modest collection and have wanted a PP for some years but have constantly been put off by what appears to be price gouging for these watches. I recently looked at 5970R...
I think it'll likely be tough
as the ADs that are doing it are probably doing it becuase they know they can do it and it'll still sell. Perhaps past experiences tell them this? So its down to you and how much you want it I guess.
Forgot to add the qualifier
that it'll be tough as long as they are buyers chasing and willing to pay the premium. But when things are tough like end 08 and last year and tarffic at ADs was close to a standstill... last year was great for buying watches.
Oh, by the way, I forgot to mention there were several instances
where there were service estimates that Patek performed gratis because circumstances were explained and they stepped up to the plate when there was a gray area. I didn't want the last post to give the impression that Patek service was totally inflexible. ...
I need to apologize for my many typos
in my replies to your posts.. Must have driven you crazy LOL. Its 1am here so...and I think I've got a sticky keyboard that may need changing..nah.. just me fat clumbsy fingers
Wow, my friends, I don't have your luck...
Each time I want to buy a PP watch, there is nothing for me, and I always have to go on the grey market. Well, there was only one exception: The 5110P, I bought at an italian PP AD. So, I almost never had the chance to get my PP watches at an AD or at a P...
LOL. well that's another form from certain leazy or
crooked parties... LOL We sure know the stories, but Paris is beautiful ;-)
The most important is to get what you want and what you dream for
The rest is secondary... To me. Best, Dédé. Nicolas
LOL, Bruno...
That MAY be an option, indeed. Food for thought... Best, my friend, and thanks! Nicolas
Real Politik
i think most of us forgot that MSRP stands for Manufacturers SUGGESTED Retail Price.... as such it MAY differ from the actual market price. in many markets for commodities and physical markets, theere is always some sort of MSRP, except that trading is do...
There are only two types of AD's in this world. Those who ......
appreciate your business and those who don't. Lucky for me my AD really does appreciate my business and shows it.
update to my story
I did succumb and pay over retail for a piece as every which way I turned I was snubbed. Shortly after doing and before wearing I asked to return and the AD told me it was not their practice to return funds. The AD then personally bragged about the new ca...
I could not agree more with TM
I see absolutely no problem with an AD charging over list on a super hot piece, and see absolutely no problem asking for a discount on a undesirable piece. Its simple supply and demand. I don't see why AD's should be held to a different standard than any ...
The AD has an exclsusive license
to sell PP watches. This is a privilege for them to carry a PP product which potentially brings in customers for their other products and general goodwill. You can view the AD as either as being an ambassador for PP or a mercenary. I do not believe the la...
Agreed. So again, everyone here who is so offended by AD's that dare to ask over retail
for a "hot piece" also pay not one penny less than retail for a not so hot piece, right? So that dealers compete on knowledge and service, and not on price? Uh, huh... And about "guaranteed" profits and availability? It's a double edged sword. AD's are re...
Not offended
Was not trying to be one sided. I see instances where pieces can go at market whatever market is. My issue was more with the representations from an AD that ruined the experience. I expected more than mere sales puffery from a Patek dealer. I actually hav...
I absolutely cannot...
disagree with anything you wrote in that post. Seriously, so many AD's are a joke of obsolescence; and I've found that, alas, most of them will lie just as often as non-AD's despite their dire warnings about not buying from AD's - lying, lack of knowledge...
BTW - I don't see AD's asking over retail as being unscrupulous. But LYING about MSRP...
or anything else (defn: lying - knowingly telling an untruth) ... GRRRR!!!!
They don;t lie about MSRP Thomas. In fact..
of all the times I have been asked to pay list or above, they are actually very blatant and in some cases, take pride (could be due to pent up frustrations from handling haggling customers) in broadcasting what the list is and what their above list asking...
Many Grey Market
dealers became dealers because of their love of timepieces. Just food for thought. Most sales people became ad sales people for a cushy job and a steady pay check. Of course there are exceptions to every rule
I concur
I agree with that many grey market dealers got into it because of their passion. I have the utmost respect for a few specific grey market dealers and trust them. Some of what is called sales puffery has had a few good illustrations posted above I expect. ...
Could it be that it is all and only about hypocrisy?
Like I mention in my earlier posts, I do not expect misplaced behaviour from a ‘suited’ places. To me, a purchase is driven by many things, one of which also includes trust, if trust is somewhere questioned by something, whereas I can or not explain it, t...
There is no hypocrisy for me in this discussion
its a case of Ad looks out for themselves and I look out for mine and if we feel comfortable with each other, we are willing to give in a bit more up to our limits of tolerance. After that, its willing buyer and willing seller and if the deal is done, nei...
You are right
This thread is interesting indeed. You are singular compare with most here, because I think most here once they choose a piece, that is the piece they are going to get. In my case out of many years in watches and with many watches, only one time I went ou...
You just illustrated another way to get the watch you want without
falling pray to above list pricing.. a used watch from a good source is perfectly fine in my book and with the difference off a new watch, you could probably get another watch or put that towards another big piece. I know it ain't the glam way but I think...
Is this a cultural thing?
I've only seen 3 ADs want to sell a watch above list, One was a Rolex daytona, one was a Patek 5712 All 3 were Asian.
Caucasian
The two Patek ADs wanting above MSRP were caucasian and one caucasian AD for ROlex wanted above MSRP for a Daytona. All were in the US.
Without reading too much into the cultural and Asian comments
I have seen lots of instances of non-Asian dealers, authorised or grey and end sellers, selling above list. I think the desire for higher margins knows no race or gender. And as mentioned by some including myself above, that is the seller's entitlement bu...