Darron
3556
Thanks Jay for the question of “value.”
I have been happily following along between many of the different aspects of value and cost considerations.
In a way, you are also challenging the value in this price range ($30-60k)in general.
Cars come in mind as a natural choice; although I assume folks here that are contemplating this range consider cars that are 100k + as well.
From a craftsmanship perspective, my bias is toward Lange and in the pre owned market pricing of “value”.
The much higher Lange maintenance pricing does put a damper on things, but it does seem natural considering the sophistication around the movement architecture and the rebuilding the movement twice.
One could argue that Patek is “wise” as they approached the maintenance of their watches for longevity and therefore have simpler and less decorated movements in this price range.
Lange’s better product value versus Patek for example
Not always easy to pick this up in photos. The dial texture is an under appreciated aspect of this particular watch as the focus is always on the honey gold. When one compares Lange and Patek in the sub $30/$40/50k price points I think there is enough sup...
I’ve owned several watches from both brands
Including the original Datograph and the Patek 3970. There is little doubt in my mind that Lange makes the better product. We can quibble over aesthetics, historical significance, etc. But mechanically Lange is the very clear winner.
And you are talking the conversation, or comparison, outside of the price brackets I referenced.
In which case perhaps the offering is more comparable (I am not sure, I don't shop there ! LOL).
i think you have to move up a lot to make things comparable. 200K range.
the only issue that i have with lange is the case/lugs design, which is somewhat a menu with very little variation.
i made the point today to visit a PP boutique and right afterwards a lange boutique. was in hongkong, they are very close to each other.
and yes, lange came out as the winner for is in terms of the overall quality feeling that you get when touching and handling the watches.
A good case can be made for better value at Lange than at Patek at perhaps most price points.
That said, since we buy watches, not a mere assembly of finely crafted components, I generally prefer Patek's overall package more than Lange's. I typically prefer Swiss styling compared to German styling. Lange's pieces are often considerably thicker tha...
Yes John, agreed, there are a number of considerations I am not presenting in my broad statement.
And "value" for any collector will reflect personal preferences some of which you have correctly identified.
Yes, indeed, I alluded to Patek's list of negatives in the last line of my note.
Both companies have these problems, for sure.
i heard stories about lange recently, which...
....are very much along the lines of PP, AP etc games. lange is freaking out when you mention the word 'odysseus'. but ia have bought an odysseus WG today from a grey dealer, new, under list price, fully stickered.... i don't know what the fuss made by la...
Those two I do have some experience with and indeed my position remains.
However, at least when the Data Up/Down was in production at the same time as the 5170 the retail price points were materially different right? Dato being considerably higher priced. So maybe not so fair. That said, I think you could probably substitute t...
+1 to vitasigns above points...add them up as a package, maybe now Patek is slightly better than Lange...
I have been a support and fan for the latter...but their attitude and service costs left me really cold. No more intentions to add any more Langes but maybe just trade or consolidate. I can use the empty slots for some more more Pateks. ...
Their price list is on their website.
My 5960 full serviced cost $1200. Their Annual Calendar is Category 4 - 2200 euros. Don’t even want to know Cat 6 ”On Request” but I heard a PLM Tourbillon can be $20k etc. I will stop at ZW, which is Cat 5.
Here it is....and it's for watches not deemed "molested" by 3rd party.
Yes...CR is correct, 1815 Tourbillon PLM is Cat 5...someone an owner told me his got a repair bill of $20+K, so I assumed Cat 6. ...
Those are the "Service/Overhaul" prices. The "Repair" prices are higher...
... and do not include the additional charges that often occur when a non-Lange watchmaker has been inside the watch. Here are the Repair prices: ...
Correct my good friend…
I initially ordered the 1815 rattrapante, when released, and a couple of months later just for curiosity sake asked about the service cost and I was told $10-$15K! Needless to say, I cancelled the order…
Knowing how robust is their watches....because I own some models that were 10yrs without service...
Is this acceptable if only service once in 15 years? Thanks my good friend, for sharing your thoughts.
The 10-15 years is a long time, however to be completely honest very few are worn on daily basis, specially in large collections as yours or sitting in dealers safes…
I wore mines as a daily for months( smaller collection), and none could compare with Patek. I took them back to Alkis for regulation and I’ve been told “If you want accuracy buy a quartz watch, Lange is not built for that”, nevertheless we like what we li...
Wow
That is very different from my experience. My Datograph is the most accurate watch I have ever owned except for my modern day Rolex. I have yet to find a watch that beats the accuracy of a modern day Rolex.
Yes, I’m with you on modern Rolex, that’s exactly why I settled for the brand after over a decade of hit and misses.
The question you have to ask yourself when comparing Lange and Patek it as follows: AreLange moments adjusted to heat, cold and isochronism? No, Patek is, so there is your answer to reliability and accuracy… I had a Dato myself over a decade ago and it ra...
You didn’t offend me at all!
I was just surprised by your experience. Im happy you shared it.
Is it adjusted
Or is it because they use a silicon hairspring? Either way, Patek's dedication to chronometry is quite impressive, however it seems very difficult for their salespeople to convey!
Easy answer, as it seems the typical mass-produced Patek Philippe is extremely easy to repro for just a few hundred Euro.
And the repro's are very, very good. Check them out on YouTube. Best bet is to stick with MB&F, Armin Strom, Czapek, and other brands they can't (easily) copy. THAT is how you know it's a great timepiece with innovation and excellent craftsmanship
Not easy to reproduce at all.
Easy to mimic, poorly. Even the so-called "super clones" for Rolex are very easily identified as fakes. Sure, they can fool the uneducated consumer. But even for an average watch collector they can be easily outed as fakes.
+100
Especially with the Pateks, the fakes are extremely easy to spot all day. Subs and Royal Oaks, a little trickier as of late (sometimes) but wouldn’t fool most who have been in it a decent amount of time or are educated collectors. I hear what you’re sayin...
Or better still...
Seek a timepiece that is very challenging to repro MB&F Czapek Armin Strom H. Moser ---- feel free to add to this list in the comments / replies below.
One view is that Langes would also be counterfeited if consumers cared more about Lange.
Lange is indubitably not a conspicuous consumption piece in the way Nautilus, Aquanaut and Rolex are. So it's a bit of making a virtue out of a necessity. But that said, I like that Lange is under the radar. I think it's a strong point in its favor. Only ...
This is absolutely true...
However, there are a lot of arguments. And there are many ways to perceive value. At the $30,000 to $50,000 price range, Pateks/Vacherons/APs/Breguets are not usually double assembled. Thus, outside of materials, design, the biggest variable here is man-h...
Thanks for adding your thoughts Patrick.
Of course cheaper in this case (be it labour, overall production costs etc) definitely does not mean inferior. And I know that's not what you are suggesting.
Ahh! Yes! Electricity is among the highest in the world in Germany!
Good point! And good joke!
:-)
By the way, Lange started to move a few of their departments to Berlin (only non-technical ones, of course), because it is virtually impossible to move creative people to glashütte (or even dresden) even though i personally would enjoy living in Dresden.....
I have only one Lange…
But a lot of Pateks. So i maybe biased but the thickness of Lange really comes to play. I have the datograph and i love the depth of the movement but the thickness sometimes throws me off. For time only pieces, i agree Lange feels that they have more qual...
Thanks for your comments, and perspective being an owner of both.
I think for me the differences appear larger at the "lower" price points for the respective brands and that was the discussion I wanted to initiate. The point re thickness is well taken, this is one (of many) reasons I am drawn to Journe for example. And ...
I have tried the ZW so many times.
But i could not get over the thickness. I agree the movement lacks the depth but i love the complication and dial. I also love the homage to Lange, the second counter chronograph. Journe is also a favorite, i have the resonance and i am waiting for the op...
Lange vs Patek
Rolls Royce vs Bentley Ferrari vs Lamborghini Etc etc etc Each brand offers its own interpretation of the product, be it cars or watches. And it’s up to the consumer to decide. When I go watch shopping , as I do car shopping, i don’t just consider the eng...
"A. Large & Sohne"
The 6100 is 8.08mm, the 1815 is 8.8mm. Good comparisons, sub seconds dials, similar diameter with the Lange being slightly smaller. Same price point. Other quick comparisons may be: Annual Calendars : 5205 is 11.36mm. 1815 Annual Calendar is 10.1mm. One i...
Absolutely true.
When I owned my Dato Up/Down, a watch I wore as a daily essentially, I was still smitten by the ZW. On my wrist the ZW, despite it being thinner than the Dato, was far too thick visually and I could never get there on making the plunge for it. So 100% agr...
Well since you asked…
As the forum knows I owned a couple of Lange’s and Pateks nothing super complicated,Dato. 1815chrono, L1moonphase, as well as Patek 5170G, 5130G, 5396G… As finishing goes at this level, Lange is superior due to the wider chamfers used, therefore more appe...
Reliability and accuracy?
That has not been my experience at all. Lange is the clear winner here in my experience.
You mentioned other brands, I would say that we could compare Chopard's L.U.C. line with Patek, perhaps.
Certainly, the 1860's easily beat Calatravas for many discerning purists. If the brand names were removed, I think most equivalent L.U.C.s would win out. Even at the level of minute repeater, Chopard has the actually wearable (2atm WR) MR with crystal gon...
Yes, Chopard is a good example too.
I think the general feeling that prompted the post was less Lange - Patek specific (I just happened to have a Lange on my wrist yesterday and so I referenced Lange and Patek). It was more a sense that even paying $30k/$40/$50k today doesn't get you a grea...
Lange makes really nice dress watches
I think the 1815 (in 40mm) is one of the nicest 3 hand watch. If patek launched a simple 3 hander with the design of the 5078g/5178g (with breguet numerals), then I will change my opinion about the 1815. The lange 1 is also nicer than any patek calatrava,...
Thanks Jay for the question of “value.”
I have been happily following along between many of the different aspects of value and cost considerations. In a way, you are also challenging the value in this price range ($30-60k)in general. Cars come in mind as a natural choice; although I assume folk...