KMII
[Montblanc Moderator]
50234
There we might disagree somewhat…
The choice you speak of is the death knell of the established players, as they will not invest into the future but into what provides the quickest return in the short run - they are fundamentally incentivized this way, so no individual blame I am trying to assign. None of the established players are big or rich enough to invest into all possible technologies sensibly in parallel, so if you do not provide clarity, they will short term optimize. Only to then wake up being the manufacturer of the best typewriter, when the world wants laptops 🤷🏻♂️
The issue is that all these companies never managed to scale sufficiently to keep a fully functioning R&D cycle with reasonable model renewal times going. The investment to get there is simply too large to sensibly make for an incumbent. Tesla, the only western newcomer benefited from on the one hand the story and primarily from fortuitous timing excellently leveraged - money was free and the platform economy idea so compelling that it was worth making the bet.
The beginning of the end or a new beginning? Stellantis to sell Alfa Romeo and Maserati
Saw the news in Finanzen.de today that Stellantis is in advanced talks to divest of Alfa Romeo and Maserati to an as yet undisclosed buyer from Asia. While some of the recent cars have been clear hits dynamically, it remains questionable, whether Stellant...
Some more info...
"Several Asian automakers – the report doesn’t specify, but you can bet they’re Chinese – have expressed an interest, the website reports, though it also quotes Maserati Chief Executive Officer Santo Ficili telling media last month that Elkann wouldn’t se...
It wouldn’t be the first time…
Pirelli led the way from Italian companies 😊 I believe you are right that it’s most likely, although financially both Toyota and Hyundai / Kia would be feasible. The question is why they’d do it. Actually that question is there for the Chinese, too. ...
As GM has practically exited the European market…
Not sure they would be a prime candidate 😉 VW has been circling around Alfa for a long time without success. Given the current state of VW, not sure this would be their primary target 😁
Sad. Their heritage is a strong asset for Asian companies but their Executives don't have the vision.
Look at Lotus with Geely. A total disaster ! Not good at all for Alfa Romeo and Maserati. Stellantis didn't manage properly the brands, despite some attemps such as Alfa Romeo in F1. Very sad for iconic brands and Italy.
The question is…
Whether the brands, for all their heritage, still have a proper place in today’s world 🤷🏻♂️
Can you expand why Lotus is a disaster?
Keep in mind no one was able to run it as a profitable entity before Geelys takeover. Without Geely Lotus would have been long gone.
It’s a complicated situation…
On the one hand the just add lightness mantra of Lotus of old would never work in selling enough cars to have the brand remain a going concern. On the other, the new electric line has not taken off at the rate wished for. Still, probably more of those sol...
There you’re right 😊👍🏻
Sadly the add lightness recipe has been contrary to getting customers for a good long while, though 🤷🏻♂️
There's some truth to that but it might not be for the right reasons. Most younger buyers have never even heard of Colin Chapman, Carrol Shelby or Dan Gurney. Let's
also throw in Alec Issigonis (for you FWD fans) while we're at it! I have huge love for Alfa Romeo and Maserati but don't see a favorable future for them if governments keep insisting on foolishly taking away consumer choice while ignoring the environment...
Lotus, AR and Maserati were in trouble long before electrification. They didn't build cars general publics want and enthusiasts were not enough to support them.
i don't think it is the regulation that killed them.
Fully agreed 👍🏻
To succeed it’s not enough to build the best car - the whole infrastructure around it needs to work, from service, sales channels, resale values… and these are a very long term investment.
There we might disagree somewhat…
The choice you speak of is the death knell of the established players, as they will not invest into the future but into what provides the quickest return in the short run - they are fundamentally incentivized this way, so no individual blame I am trying t...
Decades ago small performance oriented niche players like Maserati, Alfa, Lotus etc could keep plugging along but eventually that formula no longer provided
enough revenue to survive which is why Porsche started making SUVs and large performance sedans. I still believe that the larger companies could successfully make various types of cars if governments would get out of the way, stop the mandates. Without th...
There is one proviso…
That the development costs in Automotive are drastically higher. Without knowing the exact figures I would judge Yamaha Music’s R&D expenses as a whole are not sufficient to develop a single engine version of an engine family, let alone a car. And tha...
Evidently being diverse can only result in mediocre products? Then how is Elon managing to do so much more than just build excellent electric vehicles?
A number of legacy car manufacturers haven't invested heavily into electric cars because they don't think it's the best way to achieve mobility, even (or maybe especially) when considering being planet friendly. That's why Toyota has put so much R&D into ...
What I was not saying…
Is that a company or a group of companies cannot do different things, and do them well. Yamaha has managed motorcycles and musical instruments for a long time and Honda many things. What is less feasible nowadays is having a leading edge in several automo...
Very, very easy even for a 7 years old child. First: the foundations of the brand "Light is right" (Sir Colin Chapman)
Then the 'Geely' reality and this was in 2024, imagine in 2025... Lotus slashes 2024 sales forecast (Bloomberg) EV firm Lotus Technology slashed its deliveries forecast for the year by more than 50 percent, citing uncertainty posed by new tariffs in the U...
It’s far from plan…
Yet still a large multiple of where the volumes were before the electrification. Even if it’s 40k instead of 100k it’s still drastically above the ~1k of the years before. But I agree it’s not the Lotus of old. Sadly the Lotus of old hasn’t been viable fo...
They didn't appear to be doing particularly well.
I haven't looked into the business statistics for the two brands remotely recently, but just from personal experience, there was only one colleague who purchased a Maserati in the last 6-7 years of my various business environments.... I hope that whomever...
That we would all hope 🤞🏻
In all honesty, Stellantis and FCA before it invested quite a bit into the brands. But in this segment it’s a very long game and the RoI is very, very poor for a long time 🤷🏻♂️
I almost feel like the end was set a long time ago..
The old Maserati's and Alphas have long lost their charm IMO. The old classic bodystyles were beautiful and I can't say that either car really has done anything special besides the MC20 which puts you at a price point that you have a lot of options. And r...
Seemingly not enough people 🤷🏻♂️
It might well tip me to get a QV while they can still be had 😊
Not mass market brands
Typically AR and Maserati are not mass market brands. AR could be go for a premium segment FIAT and Maserati as a Ferrari light. As average cars also give a lot of joy to drive with, why you should need AR and Maserati? For fans of the brands it is hard w...
Lancia
Why Stellantis came with a new Ypsilon? It looks real nasty. I belief in my country Ferrari sell more Ferrari’s. I cannot write Ferrari is a car, it is a phenomenon. Beyond a product with 4 wheels. Porsche is also a phenomenon.
It is…
Still, that on its own is no reason to bring back the brand that had been dead for years 🤷🏻♂️
It seems that in Italy Lancia did not stop sell cars.
The ask for the city car Ypsilon was big enough to keep on. Outside of Italy, the brand was mostly cancelled. I remember FCA brought a rebadged Chrysler 300C with Lancia emblems. Nice car a Chrysler 300C, but the gasoline is not cheap in my country. 2E pe...
The business case probably doesn’t make sense for anyone not in the automotive industry…
As for TVR, I’d like that, too - but it’s unfortunately very unlikely, as there’s simply no customer base to make it financially viable 🤷🏻♂️
Enjoythemusic is probably referring to the Disneyland style Theme Park in Abu Dhabi.
I've never been. But I hear it's like Disneyland with roller coasters.
Back to the roots.
TVR and can i say Morgan, are old school. But at the end we sit behind the wheel of a 911.
And that’s the essence of the problem for the smaller manufacturers…
You need a lot more than just a very good car for commercial success 😊
Automotive industry is all just playing in China's sandbox and we just don't realize it yet...
Many European brands are already invested in by Chinese companies, some publicly (like Geely's 20% stake in Mercedes-Benz). China really wants to invest heavily in their energy sector - they probably think they want to be a future Saudi Arabia (my non-exp...
Well…
I think the realization is there but there’s no easy solutions. The strategic foresight and diligence of execution really deserve respect. And even if they do not fully conquer the global markets, pushing the traditional players out of China will already ...
There is an easy solution. Just not a reality nor a solution people want to accept.
As someone who has worked in the automotive space; there are a few things I'd like to point out... Generally, in order to succeed in business, you have to be either the fastest, the cheapest, or the best... China is one of the fastest to market, cheapest ...
Wow, many, many, MANY excellent points Patrick. And yes, Chinese electric cars... even Elon knows they are quite good.
If i may add to your Mercedes comment.... and BMW lost their way long ago. Wake me up when they can at least get proper steering feel for a sporty vehicle (and dare we ask for reliability too). Looking at modern(ized) cities, the technology employed for t...
You are asking for things that have too little of a market nowadays 😉
But I hear you irrespective 😁
Thank you Enjoythemusic.
A bunch of people are asking for a cheaper Tesla. Some people ask me about why Tesla isn't prioritizing a cheaper car over dinner. And I ask them why do they think that'll help Tesla's business? They respond that it'll increase volumes. And I remind them,...
Thank you Agyzace.
Think of it as the quartz crisis that came to the Swiss watch industry. Quartz watches in the 1970s and 80s brought about great reliability, incredible performance, a thinner form factor, and a bunch of positives. The Swiss pivoted - they became luxury go...
Jaguar has been a notable very competitive car brand for a long while…
Not necessarily because of the cars - although the long model cycles, as you identified - were a significant part of the problem. Let’s see what the relaunch accomplishes. I know the direction has been heavily criticized but at the same time the previous ...
They were up until the mid 90s when sales really started to decline at Jaguar.
With Mercedes, BMW, and Lexus increasing significantly in the mid 90s and onwards. I think this new concept of taking Jaguar upmarket is what the brand really needs in order to survive. It can't be a full line manufacturer anymore. But will it survive at ...
They have tried hard enough…
But never managed to scale to the size necessary in the modern world. Frankly speaking hardly anyone did, so it’s not a criticism. In the end it’s the LR / RR part that pays the bills and the volume contribution of Jaguar was small enough to have become n...
I'm betting that the new idea won't work. But I'm hopeful I'm wrong...
But I remain hopeful that I'm wrong. As I feel competition is a wonderful thing. Jaguar still has hope. With India's rise as an economic super power (it's coming quick!) there will be more wealthy people in India who will want these cars. If they decide t...
Let’s keep fingers crossed for Jaguar 🤞🏻
As it is they are a very rare sight in India. Some Land Rovers are assembled in Pune (believe the Discovery or Discovery Sport) but AFAIK no Jaguars. This could of course change but it would only work at a much larger scale - something that the new positi...
I was being somewhat overgenerous of my description of Porsche clientele...
Porsche clientele look at the Porsche brand as a more technically inclined brand. But if you look closely, almost all Porsche's 2-door models (with only a very few exceptions like the 959, Carrera GT, Porsche 918, and only the GT3 and GT3RS models in the ...
I think you have summarized it…
With the statement that you are one of the few, who actually track their cars. As the vast majority don’t, just like only 2% or so of all SUVs ever saw an unhardened surface under their wheels, it’s a sound commercial decision to do it the way they want. ...
Agreed. It's the right move for Porsche.
It's a mass market brand. Creating a mass market product. And the cars are overall getting better every year. Although I would say they're becoming needlessly technically complex. And frankly, I'm really more excited about how they contribute to the Elect...