this_hobby_of_hours
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I'll have to respond in blocks. I'm typing fast so please excuse any typos..
If Rolex and Patek don't have to buy back their watches to maintain desirability, whereas GP does, isn't that a huge competitive advantage for Rolex and Patek?
Marc- This is the business they are in. The luxury business operate on the Veblen effect. Exlcusivity and strong price consistency - desirability. Ask yourself how a currency maintains its desirabilty? The Monatary Authrorites in each country will buy back its own currency to boost it. Yes, it must have fundametals as well but the stability of a currency is what makes is desirable.
Not so long ago a tanking secondary market was a given for every brand. What changed? Certainly Rolex and Patek didn't do anything to their practise or their product between 2010 and 2020, so it wasn't supply side. Indeed, it must be demand which generated their favourable outcome - easy interest rates and the concentration of wealth lead to a sudden increase in the amount of people gravitating to the most well known brands, especially with Rolex catching the trend of office casualization, eating the demand from people who suddenly can afford a luxury watch but who no longer wanted luxury dress watches.
Marc- Totally agree. Everything above should also apply for a GP. But it does not. The brand value for Rolex and Patek are in the billions. What's the brand value of GP today?
But can you generate demand like that by playing tricks with supply? Maybe across the short term you get something that looks similar pricing wise. But longer term? More money spent on buybacks is less money spent on R&D.
Marc- The "tricks" are already being played with GPs being used a sacrifce watches for a buyer to get a patek. And then the GP gets dumped to the secodnary market at artifically low prices. The clog grows in the river until no one wants to swim in the river.
UN already did a buy back. The MD Matthieu Haverlan just spoke to Tim Mosso about it a few weeks ago. See you tube video. youtu.be
They had to do it. No choice. If they didn't, no one would want a UN at all. They melt the gold and reuse the movements and who knows what else.
What GP management has been (and still is) overlooking
When Kering bought the Sowind Group in 2011, they had big plans for GP and it’s sister company JDR. Veteran Michele Sofisti was parachuted in from Kering. “Sofisti-cated” … he created a multi-pronged strategy. One centred around clarity of brand and model...
Well, my friend, with GP there was a rule: Don't spend more than 0, 33 Cents of a dollar or you will loose money. It has always been like this. Less with U.N.
Nothing new, here. No, for me, the main problem is that both GP and UN are looking for a second and vital breathe. Nothing interesting for years, we are still waiting for innovation, originality, creativity... We are expecting the WOW moment for many year...
☺️ for me it’s
Watch AND inventory (prices) control in conjunction. Brand image and reputation is paramount in luxury. Not just the watch. 🤝 Today in Singapore I saw the 42 mm AM green ceramic brand new being sold by a dumper at USD 18,000 before bargaining. That’s waaa...
Yes. And what does that tell you?
Time to look at other areas of the business. They are not just in the watch making business. They are in the watch business with all the different areas of inventory control, marketing, distribution and pricing strategy. GP fails in these depts. they make...
: ) Meany .... I was going to give them 2/10 for marketing
because they improved a little bit. OMG, Their heritage dept I would give a -4/10 Have they seen the likes of how seriously PP, VC and AP take their Heritage? The AP chronicles website is amazing. GP just says ... this is our heritage story on a few posts...
agree and also a mindset
It's not a priority for GP. They seem to let interns and such handle their marketing and heritage. At least by by the quality and professionalism of the content.
Yes, and as Amanica sais, it was always like this with GP
I had hope with Macaluso, but it died with him… Some innovations afterwards, but no consistency! Like that there will be no brand reputation and „no“ substancial aftermarket
No one is buying GP for Msrp
I expect 60% off pre owned then I'm in! Not sure why anyone would pay retail since the brand is basically not known to the public.
Some don’t know any better.
And some are buying them as sacrifice watches. The rest of us that are informed go to the secondary market if we want one. I’m sticking with neo vintage GP and avoiding any more production watches.
Complete agreement. You can almost get that much off new from an authorized dealer!!
OK, I jest by about 15-20%. 40-45% off a brand new GP - yes, at least when I bought mine, straight from my AD. Which I sold due to quality issues. This is a brand to buy only if you are head over heels in love. Because a divorce will crush your wallet, so...
No more discounts from ADs since 2022
At least that is the official stance and enforced in asia for the most part.
Definitely NOT enforced in the United States.
People really pay MSRP for a GP? Wow. The must have the first letter confused when they purchase.
It’s usually the more expensive
Pieces like MTR’s 3 bridges that one could have expected a discount. In asia at least. But yeah, no more discounts from the ADs. Thanks to dumpers in bundle deals, 50 % discount on the secondary market. They buy at all MSRP at the AD and walk down the str...
Hi Marc ☺️
I got a very small discount from the AD. But it was more of a total package because I also sold some watches back to my AD to finance this watch. My AD was more generous with the buyback prices for their used watch campaign, so I can't really separate the...
I hear and alway appreciate
you Thomas. I see the love you have for your 3 bridges and I see why. It is a darling. As for the secondary market prices for both their high Horology (such as yours) and the more main stream pieces such as the laureato … GP will have to deal with the bed...
I’m curious
When was the last time you asked an AD for the price of a laureato and if they will give a discount?
I last year in the fall.
And I love my AD and really have a great relationship. 0%. In words: zero percent.
Thanks Thomas. My question
Was actually for Michael but good to know about you as well.
Hi Marc, I have not inquired on a new GP of any model since selling my Laureato skeleton.
I mentioned in another thread, I had a quality issue that was not addressed, so I sold the watch and certainly will never again buy a new GP. An older one? Yes, I think I would. I need to recall the name of the one I am most interested in. Like Thomas, wh...
The reason I asked when
Hi Mike, The reason I asked is that were saying that you got a discount from the AD. Since 2022 or so, no more discounts allowed from the ADs. I assume you got your laureato prior to 2022 then? Best, Marc
For sure before 2022
I would have to check exactly when. But the dealer I work with, I have a 20 year relationship. Maybe they don't discount for everyone, but I get everything at discount, except boutique purchases.
Just to add … why is Rolex so popular ?
Is it because they make amazing high complication watches with hand finishing? Are they even rare? No no. It’s because they control their prices. Both on the primary and secondary market and at auctions. Don’t forget that the majority of watch buyers are ...
Yes exactly.
The laws of economics tell us that with more volume, the price drops. That’s what’s so amazing about Rolex. 1.2 million watches and yet prices stable. The question is why? I believe it has nothing to do with amazing watches for them. It has to do with it ...
I was told by my contacts that Patrick's focus is on UN. I don't feel like he is actively involved in GP day to day at all.
It seem it can be months that they do not seem Patrick in the GP side of things. I know that zero R & D is being done on the GP side for new things. They are still sitting on all that was done by the Maclauso family and bit of what Kering did.
For sure. But it was their choice to take on both GP and UN
Better let someone else handle GP if they want to treat it this way. I had so much hope when I heard that they were going independent. How wrong I was.
Rolex quality is superior.
I’ve had so many watch brands. Quality of product for Rolex is unmatched. Probably the best quality control out there. Accuracy and durability is unmatched. Rolex is always constantly innovating. Small changes that add up. I think that’s called consistenc...
No one is going to kill you rollie fan boy 😀
I’ll agree with you on the Rolex marketing and inventory management. We agree to disagree agree on the other points. Enjoy your watches in good health always ☀️ 🤝
I am not a Rolex Fan boy, I never owned one, because it‘s so „me too“, but you are indeed right! In so many ways!
To „make it work“for a broader mass, you need to have a longterm strategy for the products, the quality of them, the service and the price. GP and many other brands don‘t have that.
I thought the same about their quality, but
unfortunately, I recently had a different experience. But I must also say that the problem was solved extremely quickly and professionally.
Agree! Durability, quality of after sales service, accuracy, consistency, maybe these are all "boring" attributes but they make for a great ownership experience.
I sometimes dream about going to a 2-3 Rolex watch collection. Great quality of life not having to worry about how you live with your watches because they are tough, longest service intervals and maybe shortest oem service durations in the industry, and w...
That would really be something.
My problem is that I love most of their models. So once I own one, it’s almost impossible to let it go. I did recently sell my Starbucks, but only because I thought its size was just a little bit too big. 40 mm is really my limit.
A rich man and a poor man know Rolex
But they also perfected their watches. They are accurate, durable, retain value, look good and comfortable. That's said they are boring. Once you owned one, you owned them all!
Idk if I agree with your last point.
It certainly feels different to wear a sub vs Daytona vs gmt vs president. But one thing they have in common is they are widely recognized and high quality (even if “mass produced”) watches.
Had them all.
A sub and gmt seadweller yachtmaster Same watch circles with lume, same cases and same bracelets and benz hands Datejust Daytona daydate Same watch same case same bezels same dials and bracelets. Same movements. Ya sure they feel differnt due to size but ...
These are good points. And this is what’s great about collecting.
Everyone has their preferences and for all of us they change over time. For me, for daily wear Rolex is still best. Sure I prefer FPJ or Patek with a suit. But Rolex plays there as well.
I’ve not bought a Rolex on 24 years of collecting
I’ve never liked the looks nor it’s being so common. If I’m spending several thousand on a luxury watch, I see so many other options. The biggest group of folks that speak to me asking for GP advice are folks that started with Rolex and now bored. Anyway,...
Out of watch lovers
Half of the people I know who are interested in Rolex watches seek for them to make money on them. The second half because that’s the only brand they really know that can give them a status (at least they think so). They’d better buy gold but they don’t a...
I completely agree with you, make watches that people would want to buy.
You have laureato, truly iconic. But the current models feel dated. Refine the design, improve the finishing - the bracelet especially needs a lot of work. I am talking about refinements, not radical change. Then you will have a winner. Yes, the secondary...
A good insight
I followed UN. I know an AD who was for some years UN AD. At a certain moment he quickly started to delete UN watches from his website. Why i did follow UN and that AD, because i wanted a watch. In chrono 24 the UN watches flopped up and down. Yesterday i...
Many games being played
I agree. And folks they payed full MSRP only to layer learn they the same watch is being sold at half off on the secondary market. It pisses off the guy that paid full and turns a fan into the opposite. I don’t mind high prices. As long as they are consis...
For a fan like u, it is hard
For me also. I’d experienced the snobbish attitude of an AD recently. Perfect watches, but the people…. But not all AD’s are snobs, thanks God. When brands sell directly online to the customer, skip AD is fine, but getting discount is maybe a thing. I bou...
Yes. Painful for me to see the GP
Maison being abused this way. GP sales a watch via an AD at full MSRP…. How it is sold, many things going on. What happens to the watch is that it ends up on the secondary market brand new. Here is an example I saw today on our singapore buy and sell webs...
the green ceramic AM 42 mm I showed the screen shot of is 40% or so below MSRP (before bargaining)
www.girard-perregaux.com this is the MSRP in USD before VAT etc. This is how bad it has become.
Yep, They like to sell with high MSRP now. More money for them. AD's no longer allowed to give discounts.
The massive discounts are on the secondary market via the sacrifice watch "games" You guys may not be aware as much as to what is going on. We see it daily here in Asia. You know how watch crazy we are.
Ostrich in the sand effect
I talk to GP senior management often. They know all of this. I tell them and give them links etc. Hopeless. And I am fan of GP maison. Imagine how sad it is for me to say that.
I know my friend. I have seen so many of your old posts and how much affection you have for GP. All you and I can do is say what we are seeing
I don't know if their marketing team even comes to forums and such. Many of them are in my GP FB group so they see what I post there. I try not to say too much outside of GP specific group as its just too painful to say these things to non GP fans. They w...
Thank you. It is nice to know that we all want the best for GP.
I collect AP, Minerva and have a Hublot Ice bang as well. I love GP the best because my father used to collect GP. And the great thing about GP (Neo vintage) is that they are sooo much watch for the $. Rare birds. Can buy many for the price of one AP. : )...
I'll have to respond in blocks. I'm typing fast so please excuse any typos..
If Rolex and Patek don't have to buy back their watches to maintain desirability, whereas GP does, isn't that a huge competitive advantage for Rolex and Patek? Marc- This is the business they are in. The luxury business operate on the Veblen effect. Exlcu...
I know many ADs.
They have Rolex stock on the back room. But yeah, Rolex doesn’t need to buy back retail stock. I also know many grey dealer. They are holding millions in stock. And dealer to dealer selling is dead. No one can or wants to buy more stock. There are 11,000 ...
And they got their Daytona's from ADs.
And even rolex premiums are fast dropping. Only certain models are still at a premium. Even Daytona's ... it depends which model and and year etc. I am not a rolex guy so I can't tell you if they are all trading at premiums or not. The main point is that ...
part 2
Would Rolex and Patek be the brands that caught the demand wave if they didn't have their reputation for quality and innovation across their whole range? If Rolex spent money on stock buybacks instead of developing their own balances or the chronergy esca...
Part 3
What does this add up to? Brands which are easy to recommend to newcomers because of their consistency across the board. You don't have to make sure the newcomer doesn't mind Omega's case thicknesses, tell them to avoid Vacheron's non Geneva seal lines, o...
Part 4
Can GP sustain itself by buying back stock? Probably in the short term - but it is a somewhat cynical and predatory way of doing so. It might ruin them in the long run if they spend money on market manipulation over improving the material quality of their...
I think this is a great point. Supply side shenanigans are great in some circumstances but for GP I would focus on the demand side - marketing, pricing, product, etc.
At lower volumes and higher prices like some of the indies or limited pieces with bigger brands (e.g. Cartier crash, Newman Daytona) where dozens, maybe hundreds of watches are at stake for a very tight audience, some focused buying and supply manipulatio...
Bingo … GP does not make
Much volume. It will not be a massive challenge to clean up the mess and participate in auctions for some pieces. It’s a marketing expense that turns into a revenue opportunity via CPO and selling the same watch with the GP warranty. MB&F has been doing t...
Maybe I have it wrong. I was under the impression they are knocking out somewhere around 20k watches / yr probably with an average price in the $30k range
That's orders of magnitude different from an MB&F making a couple hundred watches a year with an average selling price over $100k..... As for CPO, MB&F has truly unique products many with limited production where pre-owned makes sense, e.g. there's no new...
You are 💯 correct IMHO
I said that Max has a CPO buy back business going. Didn’t mean to imply that the business volume or ASP is even close. But I do think it’s doable for GP especially with some neo vintage rare birds. For example the laureato 8010. It’s the first mechanical ...
Dear Marc,thanks a lot for this post.
It raises a lot of questions and concerns that we all have for this brand. I agree with you on a few crucial mistakes done historically and lately by GP : 1. they do not control their distribution : way too many brandnew watches appear on the secondary ma...
Thank you bro. It’s good to have the more
Seasoned collectors that understand. On point 2. The MSRP was roasted deliberately. GP has come to rely a lot on sacrifice watches and bundling. Are you aware of these terms …? Maybe a term used in asia more. Customer goes to and AD and wants a patek. He ...
Now these remarks are spot on. Very well said, jlux.
Sadly, the comments do apply to UN, a brand I used to love. But not anymore. On the UN side, we can also add piss poor design language over the past 10 years +/-. Nobody wants massive Xs dominating their dial, but they are too stubborn to see it. In my hu...
I've been following this, reading the comments. UN and GP were once very respectable brands that have lost their way. There are numerous reasons but to me the big one is losing
ownership that cared and had a clue. Passion and tradition matter. Another brand I feel similar about is HEUER. When TAG bought HEUER a great brand died. Like Rolex they did excel at advertising.. fooling the foolish! There's a new plan for the brand ever...