small-luxury-world
[Patek]
8725
MTF, let me try to explain it ...
with different words.
"because they cheated on the tour special effects or that they achieved perfection with machines"
Cheating itself was not the (main) problem, but it was "the little tongue on the scale". I love some of their pieces from the past, have followed their collections over the years and noticed quite a lot changes - not only on the watches. If you call yourself one of (if not THE) the TOP LUXURY watchbrands, you have to deliver like this. I like the idea to produce a watch by machine "only" (more or less) and therefore I appreciate the lattest introduction from Swatch Sistem 51. The latter is it a luxury watch? It depends on the people and the market, but even in Germany people spent less than € 100,- (in average) on a watch. (Sidenote: the machines you need for the Sistem 51 are from Germany 
)
I don´t have any problem with achieved perfection with machines, but one should be honest. I don´t expect 100% transparence (for sure not), but I expect more than what we get told/shown quite often.
Quite a few successors of "icon´s" offer great value, for the shareholder (hopefully). Not in all cases, but quite often. I don´t blame anybody, but I also don´t spent my money on them. On pictures, most of them look similar and nice. Once you "touch & feel" them on your wrist and you are familiar with the "old" ones it gets different. I like changes, but prefer improvements.
If I spent my own money and have to pay a siginficant amount of money on a watch, my expectations are higher than ever before. My main expectations are focused on the watch itself and the service afterwards.
Regards,
Oliver
My 2014 in behalf of watches – some watches, personal thoughts and impressions
A very busy year (with ups and downs; also in my regular business and with family) is almost over and I wanted to share something with you, if you don´t mind. After more than thirty days in behalf of watches and fifty appointments with brands, collectors ...
Great considerations!
Thanks for sharing these thoughts and beautiful pictures, Oliver. I agree, that charging exorbitant amounts for work done similarly to industrialized production is not very much value, but sadly, we're seeing more and more of that. While I'm all for some ...
Customers can vote for quality ...
with their money, but sometimes they forget. If there is no market for something, no one will produce (mid-/longterm) that kind of things. Same problems as with fake´s, but this is another story ... Thanks, Richard! Oliver
Part III: impressions of factory visits, meetings with fellow PuristS ...
a "test drive" with a novelty, attending "watch" events and watch anniversaries, visiting THE watch museum ... and not to forget the GPHG 2014, once more in Geneva. If you are still looking, you will understand why it was a busy year and this was only the...
Oliver a tour de force
I super enjoyed your collage of experiences. I know this was so much work, and I appreciate your efforts and sharing. So many beautiful pieces you had the pleasure to observe and strap on. While it seemed a quick year, I felt that you had tremendous depth...
Joe, thanks for your kind reply and ...
yes "So many beautiful pieces you had the pleasure to observe and strap on." this was nice and interesting - most of the time. That was the reason why I started to travel to events like Basel, SIHH & Co. as a private person, many years ago. Just wante...
Thank you, Oliver, for a great post.
Your thoughts, I'm sure, are echoed by many here. We need to always do our homework and not jump on the band wagon just because we see a trend moving that way. Even when a Purist posts, we still need to do our own research. What's great about this forum i...
Bob, thanks for your kind reply and indeed I am pleased ...
with a supporting family - " thank your family who allows you take time away from them". My wife got invitations (together with me) for 4 days in behalf of watches and was able to attend 2 days. She starts to get quite good in watches ... and my son (10) ...
Glad you got to take your wife on some of your reporting.
Even though some invitations can be pleasurable, I'm sure it can be tiresome as well. Though a gala can be fun it can also be work ~ even if one has a passion for it. I'm sure the pace can even chip away at the "passion" where a detox may be needed. Altho...
really really great post- thanks for taking the time to show us how amazing 2014 was!
And of course, the photography is SUPERB!! Happy New Year, and thanks for these great posts!!! S
Hi Oliver, Thanks For The Amazing Post... I Sure Hope...
... the brands are listening. Your thoughts and opinions provide deep insight, and we are all on the same page. Brands claiming to be hand made should be exactly that: Hand Made! HNY! - Scott
Scott, thanks! "... brands are listening", but even when they do so ...
they won´t tell us (in public). It is not good or bad, it is just my expectation based on experience. Best, Oliver
Incredible, Oliver!
I appreciate the enormous effort you and the other Purists moderators put forward to keep all of us informed.
What a post to round up the year - Thanks!
1000x thanks to you and all the moderators here who make this community a go to place, a virtual GTG, for all of us who simply loves watches, old and new. Best wishes for a joyous and successful new year, Oliver! -- Seeks
Thank you so much for these posts....
What a treat for the eyes. Enjoyed each and every scan, especially those showing timepieces we don't get to see all that often. Happy New Year. Darren
Well Said...
I really enjoyed reading your post, I have been of the same opinion as yourself since 2008, we have to be more careful and deliberate about what we buy and where I might disagree slightly is that the Independents do indeed give us a very viable alternativ...
S, thanks for your supply and even when you disagree ...
when it comes to independents you can´t ignore that some ( not all, for sure) of them have their weaknesses as well. Quality in detail, reliability, service costs ... are not always solved in an appropriate way - unfortunately. We have less posts about th...
I hear you...
I am sure some of them have the issues you have mentioned and would really like to know which brands specifically you had this experience with however in my limited experience so far Christiaan Van Der Klaauw, Andersen Geneve and Vianney Halter have excel...
Excellent Opus Magnum dear Oliver!
Amazing pictures and text that strikes to the core No gloves on Bravo! Yours in 2015 as well Damjan P.S. Love the shot of Mr. Lambert ;)
Damjan, thanks for the flowers and I am not ...
surprised about the picture you like :-) Best my friend, Oliver
Very nicely written, Oliver.
Very good toughts, and excellent advices, my friend. Brands should read your article. There is a lof of food for thought, even for them. Best, Nicolas
"Brands should read ..."
Yes, but I think most of them know (more or less) what is going on - even when they try to "ignore" it. Manager get paid by their short-/midterm results - nothing more, nothing less. The best you can get is an agreement, but only if you talk to him/her in...
Till the moment when....
People will get rid paying so much to get a Watch... Things will change, then. Best, Nicolas
There is at least one fool ...
everyday, somewhere in the world. Call it limited edition and it seems to get even easier. If not, there is still the "grey market" which gets (frequently) new products from nobody ... There is still just too much money available, but less knowledge ... ....
I don't think they "ignore" it
I think most of the time they just don't care. Watch industry is what it is, an industry, companies are in it to make money, the big brands couldn't care less about some watch fanatic's attention to detail. Many people are easily fooled by marketing, and ...
A major 2014 thread Oliver
Dear Oliver, I imagine the time you spend preparing your fantastic posts and this is a thank you we can give to all Purists moderators. I looked at all the pictures of your post before reading the text and thought that many of them were unknown to me. You...
Mark, people like you ...
are a very good reason to spend time here - at least for me. Thanks for your kind reply and interesting posts/replies in 2014! The "new" DB chronographs are indeed superb. I think it was in 2006 when they introduced the first prototype "Maxichrono", but t...
You're too kind
and I appreciate your words a lot Oliver :) Have a great evening Mark
We need to bring back some old school values:the product must be king!
Once upon a time,when the big groups didn t exist ,when the brands were almost all owned by an actual owner(if not a family member),you knew that the product itself needed to be good,not its packaging or worse how it was marketed. In a new world,polluted ...
Dear Mo, short reply: If I made you smile ...
it is just perfect. We won´t change the world, but at least we can try to do our part :-) Best, Oliver
wonderful post, Oliver
to cap of a very informative year - I greatly appreciated your posts and contributions. Sorry that you sound a bit "burnt out" to me, I hope that some days off over the holidays may restore your spirits. Very interesting points about the big brands strate...
"a difficult balance act to try and sell luxury as a mass product"
Most of the luxury groups have been very successful with that kind of products in the last years so and it needs a "special kind" of customers to do so. One CEO of a luxury brand gave a speech about his "super luxury" products and he was not very nice abo...
It is an even more difficult balancing act . . .
. . . to sell mass product as legitimate luxury to an informed consumer, which, I believe, is the subtext of Oliver's missive. Art
Lovely post Oliver! THANK YOU
for your many detailed contributions to our Community. You are the real deal. I wish you a happy and healthy 2015!
Michael, I have to disagree here.
WE are the deal here and I have not only the moderators in mind. PuristS (in general) are PuristS for a reason, but we have to work on this every single day - all of us, even the lurkers ;-) Thanks a lot for you kind reply, Michael! Oliver
Agree and disagree
Hi Oliver Your post is very provocative. The question should really be "what do we value" in a watch. I think you are right on track in posing questions that lead to this ultimate question. But on the other hand, maybe you are suggesting some criteria tha...
Jeff, your comments strike a very important chord for me
I would like to see efforts made to demonstrate and educate these very important topics and ultimately differentiators. Whether in local GTGs or at factory visits. Or shows e.g, the watchtime events. Recognizing posts here take a huge amount of time and e...
I think it would be very difficult to get 'neutral information' through factory visits...
as those are usually arranged through press or marketing departments of the brands. They give you great insights into the inner workings of a manufacture, but without the experience of several such visits, without having read through topical literature an...
Neutral
" Speaking of 'neutral moderators' , I think you are at the right place here - don't you think?".......I am not so sure about the neutrality anymore and I'll speak about myself I definitely avoid writing what I really feel for fear of being marginalized a...
All I can do for now ...
is to ask for your honest opinion, when you feel so. We only have a few rules here and most of the topics we should be able to discuss like gentlemen in an appropriate way. If you think it doesn´t work because of me (as a person), please do me a favour an...
I have the utmost...
respect for you and your ideas and would be happy to discuss any and all with you and many of the kind moderators here HOWEVER there are others with whom I would not be as comfortable at all since they command such a large and loyal following it would be ...
Once more ...
thanks for your honest reply, which is much appreciated. Cordially, Oliver
Dear Salman
The very moment we can't speak our mind freely is the saddest moment there is...for any community I sincerely hope it hasn't come to that on PPro Salaam Damjan
Dear Damjan...
I agree but its been like that for a while so it is what it is. Why don't you try to talk about something you don't like about a watch, a company, a watchmaker, the way a watch company or retailer operates or behaves or things that make you angry or discu...
You obviously know much more than me :)
I can speak for myself and tell you that I always tell if I like or not something OK I'm simpleton and not man of wealth or power so no one cares about my opinion :) On the other hand if something is under embargo out of courtesy I would not discuss it Ar...
No Buddy What do I know...
But don't worry about it, its like High School, there will always be different cliques, it wasn't always like that in a different place at a different time (sigh) but the good thing about high school is that after some time we all graduate and go on to bi...
PS
Just between friends there is a "Naughty List", I stumbled across it one day some years ago, had to send an urgent PM to AT as it was accessible to the public. I sure hope I'm not on it now LoooooL :-) S
Is that list opens when you click on.....
Team Purists? :) :) Now if there is such list am I on it? Cheers D
LooooL :-) No it is...
not the list when you open Team Purists :-) Naughty Boy trying to get me into trouble tsk tsk ;-) S
It's an eternal struggle, Salman, believe me!
Let me start with (once again) the PuristSPro philosophy of life: "Pursuing integrity and perfection in an imperfect world." There it is: 'pursuing' ... 'in an imperfect world' We all here, 'simple' members as much as moderators, can only try to uphold ou...
Salman, my friend, what on earth are you alluding to?
Dear Salman, We all change; that's life. Even when we make a conscious decision NOT to change, we still do. That said, the site changes you are alluding to are anathema to me, as they are fundaments for the very reason for existence for this site. Would y...
Its that time of Year Dr. T so forgive the ramblings of...
a overly nostalgic friend who wishes things were like they used to be where we'd have more of you around these parts and the type of people you would bring to the table and attract to the forums. Year in Review, 5 years in Review, a Decade in Review and t...
Salman, thank you.
Thank you taking the time; Thank you for your candor; Thank you for your compliments; And thank you for caring. Don't give up on us yet; I haven't. Maybe see you in Feb...
"Your post is very provocative."
Jeff, my intention was not to be provocative for the sake of being provocative. Still it helped to get your view and some serious details/insights, which I appreciate once more. You don´t join us that often here and most of the time only for sending a mes...
BOOKMARKED!
Thank you for the wonderful post, Oliver. Over the past year of reading PuristsPro- with the majority of the time spent in the newly discovered AHCI section- my attitudes and opinions of what I thought I knew about watches has changed. This post also illu...
Brandon, thanks a lot for you kind reply and ...
I am looking forward to further posts by you. Cordially, Oliver
Wow! what a tremendous contribution to the aesthetic and rational senses
your post was terrific - indeed all your series of posts this year (the ones I've been able to follow) leave me speechless. As a new moderator after 7-8 years of PuristS-ing, I must say the work involved is more than I imagined, even for a new and simple ...
Cazaela, I appreciate your work/contributions a lot ...
and even when I don´t reply to all of them - I already learned a lot from you. Thanks! Cordially, Oliver PS: The challenge with De Bethune is to decide which one is the one, especially when you have to think about something ordinary like a budget :-)
With gratitude...
Dear Oliver, We are extremely fortunate to have amongst us someone who writes with such élan , knowledge and (sometimes brutal!) honesty. Your photographs are always luscious as well: is there anything you do not execute with style? Thank you for all that...
pplater, thanks for the flowers ...
and I have to give some back to you. You have to be (even) more active in the past, but I still have a serious weakness for your kind of posts and style. Keep them coming and I don´t talk about compliments :-) Cordially, Oliver
Almost forgot to answer this ...
" (1.) perhaps you can tell us which watch was, for you, the most interesting or exciting of 2014? Then, (2.) what do you 'forecast', or (3.) what is on your wish-list, for 2015?" I thought about it before. I have seen so many others (blogger´s, journalis...
You are a good writer AND an excellent photographer....
... I think I know what you mean.... Very well done (about everything). Hope to meet you again next year - happy and prosperous new year! Best, Ken
"Hope to meet you again next year"
Me too, but it won´t happen in Geneva some time soon :-( Will reply to your email as soon as possible :-) Thanks my dear friend and all the best for a prosperous and healthy 2015! Oliver
There's wisdom aplenty . . .
. . . distilled into just a few lines: "But to avoid the 'big brands' and to go for independents or small brands only is not the solution from my point of view. The latter would be just too easy and I still trust almost any brand has at least one good off...
My dear Art ...
gentleman behaviour, wisdom and a very sensitive (still effective) way to deal with difficult/challenging situations comes to my mind when I think about you and your posts. Thanks for your kind reply! All the best for you and a prosperous and healthy 2015...
what's truly impressive is learning of a seasoned collector ...
"A collector purchasing the latest exotica is notable; what's truly impressive is learning of a seasoned collector whose most recent acquisition was ordinary" BRAVO! Well said, Art. Cazalea
There's COSC, METAS, but I think we need another one ...
"PuristSPro Certified" for watches. It is amazing by the fact that they are not related in the watch industry, and they have a full time job just for the love of watches...really great people. I pay highest respect to all the moderators for their tremendo...
Raymond, you made my smile ...
which is a good thing :-) COSC and that kind of things have to be "black & white" with a final result. My first thought: Best we can do here is pro´s and con´s, because there is more than just one view or taste. Still I like your idea and once more I ...
What a Tour de Force.. Splendid pictorial & comprehensive wrote-up.. Further to that..
.. One can only vaguely imagine the amount work goes into such reports & efforts ! Thanks to all our moderators, contributors and here specifically to you (and obviously Magnus, also for pics) for all you are doing ! It is these endeavours, which makes th...
hs, thanks a lot for taking the time to reply ...
and also thanks for the kind words. All the best to you as well! Cordially, Oliver
Yes, Oliver, 2014 was a year of great friendship and enlightening moments!
Your absolutely outstanding pictorial review just reminded me on what an excellent year it was - having had the privilege for repeated instances to do (not only) the fair reports together with your, my friend. Indeed, my own bottom-line of what I learned ...
Responding after the New Year haze
Oliver, Thank you for thought-provoking annual summary. My favourite photo was this one......... For obvious reasons ! One statement took me by surprise ( bold text is mine ): When the group left, I asked the person in charge one simple question and learn...
MTF, let me try to explain it ...
with different words. " because they cheated on the tour special effects or that they achieved perfection with machines" Cheating itself was not the (main) problem, but it was "the little tongue on the scale". I love some of their pieces from the past, ha...
Understood and perhaps a new direction
Oliver, Thanks for expanding on your thoughts. It seems that even those who spend more than 100 Euros would like to stay below 5000 Euros. Thus, we should have a rethink about our simplified PuristS fora....? I'm sure we can think of more beautiful names ...
...and I always thought...
that we serve the majority of dreamers and the minority of buyers :) Fullish me D
Hrvatska traži zvijezdu or Croatian Idol
damjan, Like 'American Idol', 'Pop Idol' or even 'Hrvatska traži zvijezdu' (Croatian Idol), dreamer audience cannot save their favourites. We need some dreamers voting with their feet, credit cards or phone-in votes to keep the dream alive. That is why la...
I hope that you'll..
stop by one day melvyn and see that we don't have stars nor idols ;) Sincerely D
.......or as I prefer to call it......
Idealist "Inside every cynical person, there is a disappointed idealist" George Carlin ;)
As I said before, I like changes ...
but prefer if they are related to improvements (whenever possible) and so far I am not convinced. Sometimes it can be even more interesting if you compare details without the price tag in mind. Quite often the price (only) doesn´t qualify for an appropria...
Like King Canute or Ethelred II (The Unready)
....we cannot stop the flow of time and changing tide. Neither can we insist to resist change....... Enigmatic Sardonic Smiley, MTF
Melvyn, wouldn't this lead again to a discussion on prices?
We were always proud that at PPro we maintained a club that focusses on the intrinsic value of any given watch. I would very much prefer to leave it like that. Furthermore, we could discuss ad nauseum on where to set the price differentiators. It seems ar...