Euroasianstar
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The only difference is...
...that Aston Martin and Mercedes are very transparent about it and made press releases to that effect. The AMG engine is actually an upgrade to the Ford derived engines made in Cologne back in the day. In the car industry best of the best components are the game and the brand stands for the overall integration and quality control of the end product.
The watch industry is somewhat different. The industry has spent millions selling the vertically integrated manufacture narrative over the past few years. Outside of the big brands, the independents likewise tell stories of handcraft, time honed finishing skills and very low production numbers, which (true or not) are often quoted like a badges of honor. The watch makers upsell the notion of rarity and exclusivity. After all, for many of us this irrational collector’s game it is human nature to do well in life and surround oneself with things that are rare, special and desirable. It is also in human nature to avoid feeling duped in any dimension. Watch brands understand this, carefully hone their stories over years, and charge a significant premium for in-house calibers vs (often equally good if not more robust) ETA or SW derivatives. Actions that undermine the narrative also undermine the perceived value of the product.
I find it astonishing to read several comments from various folks above where suddenly rarity matters less, limited edition production discipline is not so important, poor channel discipline and “everything goes” configurations are ok...as long as the inherent “static” value of the watch is good enough. Also surprised to read another comment that commercial honesty should not longer be assumed.
I beg to differ. To me these things matter. To many longstanding collectors who spend their hard earned money on this obsessive hobby, transparency, exclusivity, origin and brand cachet matter just as much as the inherent design, construction and finish of the watch. That’s often the difference between big brands / independents that have staying power, record auction results (even without big budget in-house museum bidders) and loyal multi-generational followers vs those that flame out after initial success. Incandenza put forward some examples, claims and hypotheses around Ferrier and I have heard more folks trying to explain it away rather than refuting it with better facts.
As much as I like the Ferrier watches and the micro rotor movements on a stand-alone basis, even getting close to buying one last year, for me the jury is out where LF will land long term.
Laurent Ferrier - my concerns
FOR DISCUSSION I am concerned about Laurent Ferrier. Here is why. FIRST, they do not make any movements in house. The minute repeater they released at Basel has the same movement as an old Girrard Perragaux - that’s because it’s made at Fabrique du Temps ...
Your chosen handle/name sounds like “lights things on fire”
And your post is singularly & similarly inflammatory. And it didn’t have to be done — or if done it could have been done ina more gentlemanly fashion. Ranting is seldom precise or inviting. Cazalea
I agree with …
The point that we must treat people and subjects with respect or the forum that we all love will descend into a race to the lowest common denominator.
I've recently discovered the production is outsourced
Actually there would be nothing wrong, if all the independents reported it clearly. Because there only few who have CNC machineries and do all the "dirty job". Finishing is just the icing on the top, that's why my esteem for Mr. Ferrier has definitely dim...
Good points both
I have consolidated my independent collection into Romain Gauthier and De Bethune - who truly produce in house watches. I also have an MB&F, because they are totally honest about who makes what.
MB&F total honesty?
Hmm. Here is a quote from page one of the press release for the LM101 Frost... "While award-winning independent watchmaker Kari Voutilainen took responsibility for the movement’s fine finishing and fidelity to the horological past, its architecture and co...
Great point
I agree that the press release you have quoted is potentially misleading. It should have been much clearer, and consumers should demand proper transparency from all watch companies - even (and especially) the independents we know and love. In short, the f...
To be fair
That is a beautiful watch - with the best case and best movement they have produced. They need to preserve brand equity to ensure that loyal customers (like you and me!) stay loyal. Best wishes
No need to be disappointed …
Your watch is just as great as before all this started. Enjoy it !
I think most of this is actually known...
...I think the first three letters of the movements actually start with the initials of the founders of their third party movement manufacturer. Devil’s advocate might state that Ferrier is a great marketing exercise propagated by HODINKEE and the likes. ...
+1 Some clear concise issues OP-Assembling outsourced parts, hype marketing, alt distribution are hallmarks of make hay while the sun shines. Brand Equity is always at..
...risk when you spread yourself too thin without having strong legs. One has to a/c for that risk into market pricing like pmh said.
Great analysis
You said it more eloquently than me. None of this is really “new”, but it’s adding up to a problem. Also, the production is MUCH higher than most people think. The ADs have only a fraction of the overall production
can you expound on production numbers being higher than published?
The company is small and can only produce so many watches per year. I don't see how the numbers can be a lot higher. This is news to me.
If you buy a great watch that you adore for the watch, not because of its rarity...
If you buy it because you like it for the aesthetic and technological reasons, why would you like it less if they made thousands more? If the ownership changed? If the company later became a company held to less high of regard? Your piece is the same, it'...
I've heard watchmakers say that Philippe Dufour is also a kind of master marketer...it's really all about what's special and important to you versus what is being offered.
There are almost completely vertical manufactures and small independents out there if that is what you want. Why not look elsewhere. For me, the entire second point you make doesn't matter at all. Not even a little. In fact, the part about " And they’ll m...
I normally don’t get involved in these discussions
The parts are outsourced. So what. The designs are in-house. They are assembled in house. They are finished in house. They make about 150 watches a year. If you like the watch, then that is all that matters. The grey market is selling at the same price as...
I’ve bought regular pateks and their value has plummeted.
Example 5100g. Very limited. No buyers. 5107p. Very limited. Value only fair. Etc I did not jump on the 5070 and 5970 bandwagons. I could not qualify for a new one and used they are untouchable now.
yes, its a good watch for sure
but I feel all companies/business are prone to exaggeration (aka marketing). some things may not be factual, but end of the day, which businessman is honest? Even Facebook, with all its ethics and integrity, is not honest. For me, I just feel that as long...
That's so true Winston
If LF is being dishonest, wait until one deal with AP! I am so pissed off with them now, but that's another long story for another time.
Aston Martin fit AMG Mercedes engines in their current production...
..do you want one any less? Do you expect Aston to also make their own gearboxes, wiper motors etc? Or do you want them to to design something beautiful and functional and finish it to the most exacting standards?
The only difference is...
...that Aston Martin and Mercedes are very transparent about it and made press releases to that effect. The AMG engine is actually an upgrade to the Ford derived engines made in Cologne back in the day. In the car industry best of the best components are ...
Forgive my ignorance, but could someone tell me specifically what LF has been dishonest about?
From reading other posts, I am aware that LF sources CNC machined parts from providers. But if I understand correctly, the design, assembly and finishing are still done in-house. It's not as if LF is taking an ebauche and dressing it up. I'm really intere...
LF’s lack of transparency
I’m afraid that LF is indeed “taking an ebauche and dressing it up”. Here is a photo of the movement from their new minute repeater compared to the movement of a Girrard Perregaux. It’s clearly the same movement/ebauche (look at the overall architecture),...
Hmm...I see what you are saying.
It would be important to understand the ongoing relationship between Fabrique du Temps and LF. The story of their collaboration to produce the launch caliber for LF is well-known and not hidden by any means. I presume this minute repeater caliber is the p...
One by one
1.They don't appear to claim to. With specific reference to the minute repeater, here is the key quote from their own press release - "Laurent Ferrier chose a very classically designed movement" It doesn't say designed, it doesn't say built. It says the m...
Hi Gerald
First of all, you are one of the best watch photographers I have ever seen. Your photos of the LF micro-rotor movement are downright stunning. And the Patek 5370p photos are even better. Second, I think you probably can comment on my third point above. Bu...
This is just weird
“Second, I think you probably can comment on my third point above” No I can’t. I have literally, empirically, zero knowledge on the matter. Your insinuation that I do so is defamatory. You are going to hide behind an anonymous Internet forum handle and ac...
Thanks for your comment
A little aggressive, but that’s OK! Do these pictures assist? I am told by people “in the know” that there are several more examples, but these should do for now. These are basically the same movement, but with different bridges. The LF has some extra dec...
Here are all the CLARIFICATIONS needed :
During Baselworld this year, we had a conversation with the CEO and Mr Ferrier and the story is the following : One year before the creation of the company “Laurent Ferrier SA”, his son Christian Ferrier was working at “La Fabrique du Temps” (way before L...
Thank you
I was going to guess that it had something to do with the fact that Christian Ferrier had been working at Fabrique du Temps. If Christian Ferrier had been part of the brain trust working on that movement and took the designs with him, IMHO that is reasona...
Formerly working at a company does not give you intellectual property rights
I'm a consultant and operate in this same type of environment, albeit IT, not watchmaking. We build custom software for our clients and we do so by charging for our time and building based on their specifications. In the end, the final product belongs ent...
I was not discussing intellectual ownership in the legal sense.
As far as I know, nobody is suing anyone for using the movement. I was discussing whether or not C. Ferrier was part of the driving force behind the creation of that movement. It seems like he was. From my perspective, that means LF's use of that of movem...
"Implicit claims" of ownership is a subjective opinion of what LF-person and Brand-are actually saying.
And ownership of the design here is meaningless. Is the brand misleading us, about "in-house" or not? I, for one, don't see it that way. Now, it should be D F# A; or if starting at D#, then G A#. I prefer Eb.
I assume you are doing the same type of work in Switzerland?
I have a pretty good idea how US copyright law affects our software development. I have no idea how IP is handled in Switzerland. As others have stated, I doubt he was referring walking out the door with tangible IP, but rather the knowledge of how he cam...
Many thanks to the Khan brothers
For this helpful analysis and clarification. As you know, I have always been (and remain) a fan and supporter of LF and all independents. The GP minute repeater movement debuted in 2010, and was completed by no later than 2009. I do not doubt that Christi...
The brown dial
Is simply awesome. I certainly was not criticising the micro-rotor pieces in Galet Square or Galet Classic cases, which are stunning and distinctive.
Hi mate :-)
Actually I found your posts both insightful, forthcoming and real. Nothing wrong about putting your view out. I just had to share a photo or two to diffuse the tension — no other intention my end! This is a place where we share our thoughts and passion fo...
Why? They are beautiful!!
The steel square blue dialed version is my target. Nevertheless there is nothing wrong with some clarification regarding the content of a watch. Especially not at Watchprosite.
Hehe...
Was a bit of a tongue-in-cheek comment. Of course, nothing wrong with the micro rotor versions. I love them
to your second point a lot of independents have misinformed us about the number of pieces made in some very special pieces.
From the information I was given in the past, the FP JOURNE centigraph F was going to be made in a very small production. Seems now that will not be the point since its a boutique piece now. I've heard KV does the same through some friends that have colle...
Centigraphe F
The Centigraphe F is a "boutique piece" only in that it is made-to-order, so it can only be bought via an official boutique - no different than say, the Sonnerie Souveraine. There has been no deception from F.P. Journe on this; when F.P. Journe makes a li...
Quick incomplete response
LF is a company not a man. Of course they will do what’s necessary to turn a profit and they may do it in a way that feels like the values and practices of 29 years ago as opposed to 1 year ago... I’ve view this brand as very very nice... not Holy SH”t ot...