Independents

FOR DISCUSSION I am concerned about Laurent Ferrier. Here is why. FIRST, they do not make any movements in house. The minute repeater they released at Basel has the same movement as an old Girrard Perragaux - that’s because it’s made at Fabrique du Temps ...  

And your post is singularly & similarly inflammatory. And it didn’t have to be done — or if done it could have been done ina more gentlemanly fashion. Ranting is seldom precise or inviting. Cazalea

I have edited to be more gentlemanly.

The point that we must treat people and subjects with respect or the forum that we all love will descend into a race to the lowest common denominator.

Actually there would be nothing wrong, if all the independents reported it clearly. Because there only few who have CNC machineries and do all the "dirty job". Finishing is just the icing on the top, that's why my esteem for Mr. Ferrier has definitely dim... 

I have consolidated my independent collection into Romain Gauthier and De Bethune - who truly produce in house watches. I also have an MB&F, because they are totally honest about who makes what.

Hmm. Here is a quote from page one of the press release for the LM101 Frost... "While award-winning independent watchmaker Kari Voutilainen took responsibility for the movement’s fine finishing and fidelity to the horological past, its architecture and co... 

I agree that the press release you have quoted is potentially misleading. It should have been much clearer, and consumers should demand proper transparency from all watch companies - even (and especially) the independents we know and love. In short, the f... 

And that’s what I’ve done.

Market decides where to price them.

...  

That is a beautiful watch - with the best case and best movement they have produced. They need to preserve brand equity to ensure that loyal customers (like you and me!) stay loyal. Best wishes

Your watch is just as great as before all this started. Enjoy it !

I love that watch!

...I think the first three letters of the movements actually start with the initials of the founders of their third party movement manufacturer. Devil’s advocate might state that Ferrier is a great marketing exercise propagated by HODINKEE and the likes. ... 

...risk when you spread yourself too thin without having strong legs. One has to a/c for that risk into market pricing like pmh said.

You said it more eloquently than me. None of this is really “new”, but it’s adding up to a problem. Also, the production is MUCH higher than most people think. The ADs have only a fraction of the overall production

The company is small and can only produce so many watches per year. I don't see how the numbers can be a lot higher. This is news to me.

If you buy it because you like it for the aesthetic and technological reasons, why would you like it less if they made thousands more? If the ownership changed? If the company later became a company held to less high of regard? Your piece is the same, it'... 

There are almost completely vertical manufactures and small independents out there if that is what you want. Why not look elsewhere. For me, the entire second point you make doesn't matter at all. Not even a little. In fact, the part about " And they’ll m... 

The parts are outsourced. So what. The designs are in-house. They are assembled in house. They are finished in house. They make about 150 watches a year. If you like the watch, then that is all that matters. The grey market is selling at the same price as...  

Thanks Velo

Example 5100g. Very limited. No buyers. 5107p. Very limited. Value only fair. Etc I did not jump on the 5070 and 5970 bandwagons. I could not qualify for a new one and used they are untouchable now.

For reference.... carry on

...  

It’s an awesome piece.

My views should not be taken too seriously!

but I feel all companies/business are prone to exaggeration (aka marketing). some things may not be factual, but end of the day, which businessman is honest? Even Facebook, with all its ethics and integrity, is not honest. For me, I just feel that as long... 

If LF is being dishonest, wait until one deal with AP! I am so pissed off with them now, but that's another long story for another time.

😀

+1

..do you want one any less? Do you expect Aston to also make their own gearboxes, wiper motors etc? Or do you want them to to design something beautiful and functional and finish it to the most exacting standards?

...that Aston Martin and Mercedes are very transparent about it and made press releases to that effect. The AMG engine is actually an upgrade to the Ford derived engines made in Cologne back in the day. In the car industry best of the best components are ... 

From reading other posts, I am aware that LF sources CNC machined parts from providers. But if I understand correctly, the design, assembly and finishing are still done in-house. It's not as if LF is taking an ebauche and dressing it up. I'm really intere... 

I’m afraid that LF is indeed “taking an ebauche and dressing it up”. Here is a photo of the movement from their new minute repeater compared to the movement of a Girrard Perregaux. It’s clearly the same movement/ebauche (look at the overall architecture),...  

It would be important to understand the ongoing relationship between Fabrique du Temps and LF. The story of their collaboration to produce the launch caliber for LF is well-known and not hidden by any means. I presume this minute repeater caliber is the p... 

1.They don't appear to claim to. With specific reference to the minute repeater, here is the key quote from their own press release - "Laurent Ferrier chose a very classically designed movement" It doesn't say designed, it doesn't say built. It says the m... 

First of all, you are one of the best watch photographers I have ever seen. Your photos of the LF micro-rotor movement are downright stunning. And the Patek 5370p photos are even better. Second, I think you probably can comment on my third point above. Bu... 

“Second, I think you probably can comment on my third point above” No I can’t. I have literally, empirically, zero knowledge on the matter. Your insinuation that I do so is defamatory. You are going to hide behind an anonymous Internet forum handle and ac... 

A little aggressive, but that’s OK! Do these pictures assist? I am told by people “in the know” that there are several more examples, but these should do for now. These are basically the same movement, but with different bridges. The LF has some extra dec...  

During Baselworld this year, we had a conversation with the CEO and Mr Ferrier and the story is the following : One year before the creation of the company “Laurent Ferrier SA”, his son Christian Ferrier was working at “La Fabrique du Temps” (way before L... 

I was going to guess that it had something to do with the fact that Christian Ferrier had been working at Fabrique du Temps. If Christian Ferrier had been part of the brain trust working on that movement and took the designs with him, IMHO that is reasona... 

I'm a consultant and operate in this same type of environment, albeit IT, not watchmaking. We build custom software for our clients and we do so by charging for our time and building based on their specifications. In the end, the final product belongs ent... 

As far as I know, nobody is suing anyone for using the movement. I was discussing whether or not C. Ferrier was part of the driving force behind the creation of that movement. It seems like he was. From my perspective, that means LF's use of that of movem... 

And ownership of the design here is meaningless. Is the brand misleading us, about "in-house" or not? I, for one, don't see it that way. Now, it should be D F# A; or if starting at D#, then G A#. I prefer Eb.

I have a pretty good idea how US copyright law affects our software development. I have no idea how IP is handled in Switzerland. As others have stated, I doubt he was referring walking out the door with tangible IP, but rather the knowledge of how he cam... 

For this helpful analysis and clarification. As you know, I have always been (and remain) a fan and supporter of LF and all independents. The GP minute repeater movement debuted in 2010, and was completed by no later than 2009. I do not doubt that Christi... 

I have two .... ...  

Is simply awesome. I certainly was not criticising the micro-rotor pieces in Galet Square or Galet Classic cases, which are stunning and distinctive.

Actually I found your posts both insightful, forthcoming and real. Nothing wrong about putting your view out. I just had to share a photo or two to diffuse the tension — no other intention my end! This is a place where we share our thoughts and passion fo... 

The steel square blue dialed version is my target. Nevertheless there is nothing wrong with some clarification regarding the content of a watch. Especially not at Watchprosite.

Was a bit of a tongue-in-cheek comment. Of course, nothing wrong with the micro rotor versions. I love them

From the information I was given in the past, the FP JOURNE centigraph F was going to be made in a very small production. Seems now that will not be the point since its a boutique piece now. I've heard KV does the same through some friends that have colle...  

The Centigraphe F is a "boutique piece" only in that it is made-to-order, so it can only be bought via an official boutique - no different than say, the Sonnerie Souveraine. There has been no deception from F.P. Journe on this; when F.P. Journe makes a li... 

still carries the CTS serial #

That was my point. No limited serial number means not a limited edition.

LF is a company not a man. Of course they will do what’s necessary to turn a profit and they may do it in a way that feels like the values and practices of 29 years ago as opposed to 1 year ago... I’ve view this brand as very very nice... not Holy SH”t ot...