Ubik
1871
I also assume that none of these
watches came with a certificate of authenticity from Rolex either?
Then the question I have to ask, is what is going on?
Is the provenance of having been through the sale at Christies worth the heavy premium for these versions?
Is it not fair to assume that the buyers who are spending this amount of money are educated in what they are buying and
have an idea of the going market rate?
Or is there an explanation I'm missing because I don't understand the inner logic of the vintage Daytona? (which is entirely probable). I am genuinely interested in knowing more and understanding the logic behind the sale?
In terms of the dials, it's hard for us to say any vintage watch came with the dial we see on it, however we make an assumption that is the case if the dial
is expected on that watch.
If we are unable to say that a specific reference came with a specific dial layout, then we make an assumption based on the
known dials that could be expected to come with that watch, period specific and correct signatures, etc. Then a premium is paid on the desirability of that dial on that reference of watch, for example an Omega 33.3 with a simple white dial might not command as much as the same watch with a black four colour complex dial?
However if you can't make a basic assumption on the PN dial, in terms of either it being period correct to that version/age of watch. Then why do we think there is such a huge premium for it?
It will be interesting to see whether dealers change their pricing in response to this and whetehr in six months the pricing on these will have changed to reflect these auction prices?
This message has been edited by Ubik on 2013-11-11 10:07:11
The One million dollar Rolex Daytona - Christies Auction Result Nov 2013
Christies Auction Results - Surpassing all expectations, ROLEX DAYTONA "LESSON ONE" –a prestigious single-themed evening auction featuring 50 exceptional examples of the world's most celebrated chronograph wristwatch, totalled ,032,850 /$13,248,167 / €9,8...
Rolex, Cosmograph, Daytona, REF. 6239, from 1967 - Lot 7 - $838,090
Rolex. An extremely rare and important stainless steel chronograph wristwatch with pulsation dial and bracelet Signed Rolex, Cosmograph, Daytona, ref. 6239, case no. 1'695'328, manufactured in 1967 Source: Christies - Rolex Daytona Lesson One - November 2...
Rolex, Cosmograph, Daytona, Paul New Model REF. 6239, from 1969 - Lot 8 - $547,346
Rolex. A very rare and attractive 18K gold chronograph wristwatch with black dial and box Signed Rolex, Cosmograph, Daytona, Paul Newman model, ref. 6239, case no. 1'757'920, manufactured in 1969 Source: Christies - Rolex Daytona Lesson One - November 201...
Mind-boggling Bill, absolutely mind-boggling.....
Love the 6263/6239, very sexy and charming. Thank you Bill. Cheers Francois from Down Under
I guess the boat has left with the Rolex Daytona....
Money seem to be no object these days. What people want people get. Bill
I know money is a touchy topic here but...
I really think that the auction results are going just northbound these days, we used to think 500,000 was high for a reasonably rare patek but the near 4 million for the titanium 5004 has clearly proven otherwise...
The appetite is out there
The prime pieces always seem to find buyers and with every auction we continue to make higher highs until.... The bottom drops out but then the sellers hold back and the market comes back and the cycle repeats. Bill
"The appetite is out there" Is it really appetite or is ...
it the search for good/alternative investments, because "classical" investments don´t deliver these days and some people just feel they have to something with their money? If you can´t trust your banker anymore, you already have to many real estates ... a...
I guess this is what people do when they have.....
excess available funds and find that a "normal" return of say 7-8 % is nowhere near enough. So speculation starts, it's just another game and as such in the end there will be the suckers who entered the game to late. Cheers Francois
Reminds me a little of Omegamania a few years back
Where the themed sale resulted in some inflated prices of buyers who 'bought into the mania'. Did history just repeat itself... as prices for some rather abundant models yielded astronomical prices? Or the cheeky part of me wants to ask how can I submit a...
Maybe just former investment ...
bankers/customers with some money left, after their crisis :-)
The profile of the buyer? Interesting question my friend..
I venture for a what is in my opinion the most likely profile. The person is in his (I think he is a male) mid 30 to 40 years old, smart thinking, wearing Armani or Zegna suits or the like, Church shoes or the like, suntanned, plays squash and goes to the...
My best guess
Nicolas- I was there in the room and watched Frederick from Christies buying at LEAST 6 or possible 7 of the top 12 lots. Either he was buying on behalf of a dealer (which I doubt but possible) or he was buying on behalf of one client. He seemed to have b...
Spectacular auction
When you get the best scholars in the world for a line of Rolex together with the worlds best auctioneer you get the result you got last night. Yes prices were vey strong. But the offering was equally as strong. The atmosphere was electrifying!
Vintage Daytona
It is one of those things that seem to divide vintage Rolex collectors. You wither buy-in to the theme or you leave it alone completely. The trouble with the vintage is that i suspect there are even more variations and permutations than for Subs. I met a ...
LOL Mr. Baron "My jaw had dropped a lot!"........
Unlike the price, it sky rocketed:):) In all seriousness, did you pick it up? Cheers Francois from Down Under
Oh, nothing Mr. Baron. Just so you would reply......
and it did work:):) Cheers Francois
i followed it...
... its true that the atmosphere was out of this world. Rolex is a real phenomena in the watch world, and daytona sits on the top of the hill. Priceless.... or very expensive :)
In terms of the Paul Newman dial
you'll have to forgive my ignorance, but looking at the sale, the PN dial seems to appear in multiple refrences. Given the extra value placed on the dial is there a way to authenticate the dial to the watch?
I also assume that none of these
watches came with a certificate of authenticity from Rolex either? Then the question I have to ask, is what is going on? Is the provenance of having been through the sale at Christies worth the heavy premium for these versions? Is it not fair to assume th...
I have the same question in my mind ubik.
If one switch dials or case so that a watch is period correct for the purpose of selling at a higher price and collectors / traders INSIST it is " original" ...........i find that " unethical". I am not saying all vintage watches are like this. Many are o...
Thanks for the comments Iceman
I'm not sure if you're referring just to Rolex's or to vintage watches in general? Like you say I can understand the comfort of owning a vintage Patek with the provenance and back-up they can supply. There are lots of other wonderful brands out there, bes...
A lot of very good questions....
....you can add to your list the fact that originally, the PN version of the dial was very unusual. Most people elected to go with the normal standard issue dial. How many PN dials were made? Who knows. Estimates vary at between 5-10% of the total. Howeve...
interesting point...
to do a better estimate of PN produced let's start from watch production data ; so roughly : 1) steel 6239-6240-6241-6262-6263-6264-6265 : around 50.000 watches ( not so rare .. LLLOOOLL ) 2) gold ( same references as above ) : around 5.000 ( these data a...
it's impossible to give you ...
a direct answer due to production overlap between 6239/6241 and 6262/6264. I can answer you in another way : there are two kinds of PN dials for steel 6239 : 1) type 1 with " square DAYTONA " in use for PN dials from the beginning up to around 2.000.000 (...
Marcello...
. ...many thanks for such a detailed answer....and also for that illustration on types.....I will now need to check my own dial!!
you are most welcome and ...
no need to check your watch : with a black dial it can be only a " type 1 " : the printing " T SWISS T " in the type1 is nicknamed " roof " due to the increasing and decreasing shape of the word SWISS : there are 3 different shapes ( high , middle and low...
in other words..
there are 3 correct different versions of the printing " T SWISS T " at 6 . type 2 has just one correct shape ( the word SWISS must be flat ).
Thanks you for sharing your knowledge
in your first post you mention - " batches of replacement dials ( made with the same dies )" Is there a way to tell these dials from the two you show?
pas de quoi !
about your question : first of all I'm speaking only of dial with the correct SINGER punch in the back ( two types also for this feature ) and thus accepted by Rolex and not about dials with no punch at all or with a " fantasy " punch . for what I know th...
Dear Baron
I really appreciate and like the Daytona as a watch and the PN dial is very beautiful. It was certainly not my aim to question a collectors desire or the value they may place on it. The cocktail that goes into why we want a watch is personal, and often co...
The stardust is simple
You asked what stardust christies has that others don't have? Its pretty simple really. Get the worlds leading experts (Pucci, Auro etc) to find the best examples of Daytona. Put in some clever marketing. A little copy of the Puccis book. A nice red case....
Seriously
At the same time on a well known internet website there are around 150 Daytona Valjoux for sale, and some are here since months or years... :D No one seriously believe that an auction wil lead to results which 2,3 or 5 times the high estimation on every l...
My thoughts to all sellers which have same stuffs...
and can't sell them for a small part of the christies results. We may talk of this sale for a long time. thanks for sharing Bill François
Absolutely fascinating
As much as Rolex for me is the ultimate 'brand builder' in this world, the best marketeers in the world simply, as much the people 'involved' in Rolex vintage watch dealing are simpy geniuses. The way Rolex sports models from 50s-70s are built up into an ...
Absolutely agree with all what you've said....
... i've once stated it in a different manner over here, and got the Rolex fans upset. But totally agree with you. Now if we take it a little deeper, it would be interesting to see all the dealers and vintage collectors that have similar models but can't ...
"and didn't only buy for investment" surely not RDL......
what on earth makes you think that?:):) It is called speculation, it is an old game and today due to the GFC and QE1,2,2.5 and 3 the stakes are just getting higher. In the end some will be bitten harder too. Agree totally with your post. Cheers Francois f...
agreed
yes, and it shows in what a polarised world we live in. Whilte ECB lowers interest rates out of fear of deflation (!), which might be the reality for 99% of people, there is an incredible asset price bubble building up in art market, real estate and vinta...
Some history on the Million dollar Rolex Daytona
Sotherby's 2011 Auction - lot 280 – an extremely rare Oyster Cosmograph Daytona “Paul Newman” with inverted lines dating from circa 1967 sold for CHF 206,500 ($233,120), comfortably exceeding the pre-sale estimate of CHF 100,000-150,000 ($111,000-166,000)...
come on
That's not a fair comparison, that was before the fine, sublime spiderweb pattern was discovered in the subdials!
Or stardust
It just seems a little crazy to say the least. The papers in the original one sold at Sotherby's????? Bill
Oooops! I was wrong Bill.......
on a previous post venturing to describe a possible profile of the buyer I stated a probable quick 10% profit:) I just realised that I missed a "0" :):) Cheers Francois from Down Under
Same day at Antiquorum
description: ROLEX REF 6239 COSMOGRAPH DAYTONA TROPICAL DIAL Rolex, "Cosmograph Daytona" case No. 2005234, Ref. 6239. Made in 1969. Very fine and rare, water-resistant, stainless steel wristwatch with round button chronograph, registers, tachometer Estima...
I will never think I paid too much for a vintage Rolex again as long as I live....LOOOL
Insanity at it's greatest IMHO!
Maybe that's part of the idea.
There's a salesman's trick called "Anchoring". "So, let’s bring this concept to the surface (pun intended). Anchoring is generally used by a seller, which as a hypothetical example we will say the seller is happy to sell their product for $500, but to get...
So dealers bid on their watches, nothing new, they need to cash in on the huge stocks of
Daytona they have and can't shift :) Only an idiot would pay those prices.
Looks familiar Bill ?
I agree, there's only one well known on the market after all. This one has been sold by Kamal some years ago and surfaced in auction for the first time @Christie's.
That is the one
I don't think another exists. The price climbed very quickly. Nice example. Misunderstood by some. Best Bill