CR
[Moderator]
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Data point (steel Datomatic) and general thoughts
Hi Walid,
Wonderful hearing from you!
I am confused about the strong negative reaction from so many people, because these changes don't seem very substantial to me IF they are implemented honestly and efficiently, as described. I don't understand why so many people are now saying they can no longer buy what they want when it comes to Lange. With the exception of the very few "application pieces" (steel Odysseus Datomatic and limited editions), anyone can still purchase any Lange they want from any AD or boutique without having any prior purchase history.
The "application pieces" are what you asked about. As we know, hard-to-get limited editions were always offered to known customers before they were offered to unknown customers. That's a common-sense business practice. If you had prior purchases from that AD or boutique, they'd offer you the next Pour Le Merit they get before they'd offer it to someone unknown to them. No surprise there.
Now, to your excellent specific question, I didn't ask if preowned Langes would "count" if a person wanted to buy one of those (few) application pieces, but we do have the data point of the steel Odysseus Datomatic to look at. I know at least some people who tried to buy steel Datomatics were told they needed to have purchased watches from that same point of sale (boutique) in the past. So that's all we really know.
I think what will happen going forward will depend entirely on supply and demand. Let's take a limited edition piece -- an "application piece" -- as an example. If Lange makes a LE of, say, 300 pieces and has trouble selling them under the "application piece" model (prior purchase history), then I'd bet Lange would relax that model just to move the watches. But if Lange makes an LE of 20 pieces, then it would almost certainly be the case that you would need a prior purchase history with that particular point of sale before they'd sell you one of those rare LEs -- which again is nothing new, because it has been standard practice (and common sense) for ADs and boutiques to sell rare, desirable LEs to known clients.
There is one additional factor relevant to your question: Where did you purchase your pre-owned Langes? Many Lange ADs sell preowned Langes in addition to new ones. It would make a LOT of sense to me if Lange would "count" preowned pieces towards qualifying a person for a new "application piece" IF those preowned Langes were purchased preowned from the same AD who'd sell you the new application piece. I am a huge supporter of ADs (vs. boutiques), and I would hate to see clients get squeezed out of their local ADs and moved towards more distant boutiques. As long as Lange boutiques stay out of the preowned business, ADs could have a huge advantage here, if those ADs can become more of a market-making force in the preowned market, by allowing preowned Langes that they sell to count towards future purchases of pieces like the steel Datomatic or a rare LE.
The "application pieces" are what you asked about. As we know, hard-to-get limited editions were always offered to known customers before they were offered to unknown customers. That's a common-sense business practice. If you had prior purchases from that AD or boutique, they'd offer you the next Pour Le Merit they get before they'd offer it to someone unknown to them. No surprise there.
Now, to your excellent specific question, I didn't ask if preowned Langes would "count" if a person wanted to buy one of those (few) application pieces, but we do have the data point of the steel Odysseus Datomatic to look at. I know at least some people who tried to buy steel Datomatics were told they needed to have purchased watches from that same point of sale (boutique) in the past. So that's all we really know.
[Personally, I have no problem with that practice because so few steel Datomatics are being made and delivered right now, and a lot of people seem to want them for whatever reason. I would have more of a problem with this practice if a steel Datomatic was sitting somewhere unsold at a boutique or an AD but I couldn't buy it unless I had a prior purchase history.]
I think what will happen going forward will depend entirely on supply and demand. Let's take a limited edition piece -- an "application piece" -- as an example. If Lange makes a LE of, say, 300 pieces and has trouble selling them under the "application piece" model (prior purchase history), then I'd bet Lange would relax that model just to move the watches. But if Lange makes an LE of 20 pieces, then it would almost certainly be the case that you would need a prior purchase history with that particular point of sale before they'd sell you one of those rare LEs -- which again is nothing new, because it has been standard practice (and common sense) for ADs and boutiques to sell rare, desirable LEs to known clients.
There is one additional factor relevant to your question: Where did you purchase your pre-owned Langes? Many Lange ADs sell preowned Langes in addition to new ones. It would make a LOT of sense to me if Lange would "count" preowned pieces towards qualifying a person for a new "application piece" IF those preowned Langes were purchased preowned from the same AD who'd sell you the new application piece. I am a huge supporter of ADs (vs. boutiques), and I would hate to see clients get squeezed out of their local ADs and moved towards more distant boutiques. As long as Lange boutiques stay out of the preowned business, ADs could have a huge advantage here, if those ADs can become more of a market-making force in the preowned market, by allowing preowned Langes that they sell to count towards future purchases of pieces like the steel Datomatic or a rare LE.
I hope that makes sense!
Any thoughts from you or anyone else?
Lange Sales/Distribution Change – Pre-Sale Pieces and Application Pieces
Hi All, Lange is changing some of its sales and distribution practices. I heard rumblings that something was happening about a week ago, but the information I received at that time was a bit confusing and conflicting. To sort this all out, I asked Lange s...
I understand why they're doing this...
...but I HATE the practice of 'you have to buy a bunch of stuff you don't really want in order to get the one thing that you do really want.' The only possible way that would work is if they discount the application piece to make up a bit for some of your...
I know what you mean, and I'm glad I don't actually want any modern steel Rolex watches right now! Here's another way to look it it...
... which of course is all too familiar in the Rolex world. If you want that one impossible-to-get application piece, you can probably get it pretty quickly on the preowned/secondary market. You'll pay the actual market price, which is higher than the ret...
Lange’s stated rationale for its pre sale model seems suspect.
I think it’s all about price protection of certain pieces and selling them without discount. That is fine, and certainly up to Lange. Maybe it will strengthen the brand, which is good for Lange. But my cynic’s antenna is buzzing. Thanks very much for the ...
Can you help me understand this more, John?
I've heard others say this, but I don't get how the change to a pre-sale model would prevent discounting, except in the case where a pre-sale piece has been sitting idle in and AD's inventory for a long time (because that won't happen any more going forwa...
My thoughts...
Generally speaking, actions that reduce supply in sales channels will also tend to increase price (which I also equate to reduced discounts). The pre-sale policy certainly will mean less in-stock supply at ADs, so end-customers will have less ability to s...
This makes sense, thanks John.
I can also see how, under the pre-sale model, a dealer might offer a discounted price but only if the client pays that entire (discounted) price up front, at the time of the order. It will be interesting to see how this all plays out.
For sure.
In fact, one countervailing point is that a pre-sale could still justify a discount since the dealer isn’t taking on inventory risk or carrying costs. Whether allocation rarity offsets this factor is anyone’s guess and piece-dependent, I’m sure. As a cons...
Thanks for sharing this. Out of total clarity, can I ask what you mean by "I asked Lange," so as to add context to your writeup (e.g., a boutique, a contact at the manufacture, an executive, etc.)?
As a quick reaction, this concept of "pre-sale" is certainly not new; my girlfriend and I -- like probably everybody else -- have been doing essentially the same thing with Louis Vuitton (or Hermes, etc.) for years, when we go to a new store that doesn't ...
Sure Fab. Lange = Lange USA/corporate, in my writeup. I'd NEVER trust ...
... anything that a boutique salesperson (of any brand) might tell me about such things without first verifying it with corporate Also, to be clear, the "minimum prior purchase history" requirement for an application piece is determined by Lange, not by t...
What a terrible idea ... I would always respect the watchmaking, but management has been a total failure.
I know that he was a symbolic figure in the later years, but I would say that the passing of Walter Lange marked the end of an era. Lange used to be the friendliest and most welcoming to newcomers high horology brand. The quality of the watches, especiall...
Thanks CR for this post....I just saw on Instagram by “the winding stem”
It seems another new thing, any Lange >$50k becomes an application piece and only people who have purchased 2 Langes can apply, subject to approval? He quoted this info was obtained from a call with the CEO.
Yes, I understand there's some conflicting information on IG. I suppose we'll find out very soon...
... as soon as someone on the forum goes to an AD and wants to buy a Zeitwerk or a Dato Up/Down. We'll see what they're told!
To clarify
I was told by two separate ADs that the requirements is two sub 50k purchases and not Mr. Schmid. In my post I have updated what I was told by Wilhelm which is those pieces require an application through an AD and Lange will approve according to their own...
Thanks for this additional info. Can you clarify...
Exactly which current pieces did those ADs tell you will now require a prior purchase of at least two sub-$50K purchases? Were they the same "pre-sale pieces" that I was told in my post here? Exactly which current pieces did Wilhelm Schmid tell you will r...
Perhaps this strategic move is preparing Lange for future years when demand will exceed annual production.
Typical annual production has reportedly been approximately 5000 timepieces per year. But recently released numbers for 2020 indicate that Lange only produced 3800, most likely due to the Covid shutdown. Maybe this suggests that Lange is finally at or nea...
Hmm, it will be interesting to see, how well and transparent the implementation of this will be.
I could live with the fact, that they link the purchase history internally for allocation purposes of special items and price stability. I would hate to see the PP way of things to put the customer‘s name and even adress on the watch certificate or any ot...
Maybe I'm old school?
But the idea of any company selling anything to me to take my money telling me or insisting I have to had or purchase x, y & or z before I can be considered worthy to buy XX can go and stick XX where the sun doesn't shine and I'll keep my funds to spend o...
You seem reasonable, not old-school. Tell me what you think about this...
When the steel Odysseus Datomatic was introduced, we all knew that it required a prior purchase history. That was no secret. It was part of Lange's strategy from the beginning. That's the dynamic you're referring to -- "you must buy X and Y before you can...
Everyone is free to do as they please.
But for me yes it has turned me off all brands that either officially or unofficially via their Boutiques or AD's demand that before they will be gracious enough to allow them to take my money and me to get an item I wish to purchase have to either spend ...
I don‘t think that has anything to do with old school. These business practices have been common in the watch industry for special and high in demand pieces for a long long time.
Limited editions were always given to known and/or valued customers first, if they wanted it. And application pieces or special order pieces are probably as old as the watch industry. It is of course up to everyone to choose on their own, whether they acc...
Delivery time may take up to the usual 6 months if Lange needs to manufacture a watch....
Any specific financial arrangements, such as whether the point of sale requires a deposit before placing the order, are determined by the point of sale. There will be a mandatory deposit, don't you think so? Lange simply wants to work by order, with no bu...
Re "mandatory deposit"...
I wondered about this too. I think it depends upon the relationship between the client and the AD. If the client is unknown to the AD -- brand new -- then it makes sense for the AD to require a deposit of some form (fully refundable, mostly refundable, no...
Thank you for sharing this info
When buying an expensive piece it is a must for me to inspect the specific example personally pre-purchase. On that basis, I will never go through a pre-sale for a significant piece. Meaning, I am removing Zeitwerk WG from my wish list for this year (and ...
Sure thing! But can you say more? I'm confused about your position...
I feel exactly the same way you do. I have the same concerns, and I'm sure most others do too. That's why I specifically asked if Lange would ever require us to buy a watch sight-unseen in this "pre-sale" model. The answer was "no." I was told that you ca...
I don't like this practice.
I most definitly want to see the watch before purchase. And I do not like that the company producing and selling a product (a watch, car or something else) will decide wether they think I am good enough to be a customer of theirs. What happens in the next...
I appreciate your comments. Some thoughts...
I too want to see the watch in person before purchasing and am glad this is always still possible. And I too would hate if Lange (or any watch manufacturer) said, "To buy this watch, we need to know what other brands you own, when you bought them, what ot...
The AD where I recently purchased my up/down share something very similar to this last week and I was surprised...not too sure what to make of it yet
I think there are some good and bad/sad about it...thanks for the detailed post
Thank you very much for this piece of information
Let's see how it works out in practice. Personal note: this kind of behaviour makes me buying my watches elsewhere. I don't want to participate in this "I Beseech thee, Oh Seller, to grant me the opportunity to lay my money in thee lap, in order to get a ...
Why do it?
1. Upgrade brand perception . 2. Reduce availability of high end models on the grey market. 3. Steer customers to boutiques where they can see models in the metal. 4. Better visibility over demand. I'm sure there are others.
for me... it's dead
Sorry guys. I will decide what I want to buy. I will pop into the store and buy what I like. If they don't like my way I will spend my money to other brands. I will choose the product, not the seller should select me to be his customer. I'm out! stere
Ugh, this smells really bad. Very distasteful imho.
Conceptually, I like the idea of pre-sale/made to order. I think there's nothing wrong with having to order and wait a few weeks/months for a watch. Having efficient allocation and production of watches should be a good thing for ADs who don't have to car...
I wonder if this will change, re steel Datomatic and future "application pieces"
At some point, demand for the stainless steel Datomatic from customers with prior Lange purchase histories will be entirely satisfied. There will be no real waiting lists. What happens then? I see three possibilities: (1) Continue to offer this as an "app...
You nailed it! Making the steel dato an application piece is a mistake imho
To your point, unlike a numbered limited edition, the steel datomatic is going to continue production and once supply catches up to demand, Lange would need to change their position similar to the scenarios you stated or continue it as an application piec...
I was thinking more about how a brand might strategically handle a non-numbered "application piece" like the steel Datomatic...
If I were Lange, I'd discontinue this watch as soon as demand from good, prior customers is satisfied. From a brand's perspective, the problem with numbered LEs is that the brand can't accurately predict how supply will meet demand. If Lange makes 218 Ric...
Agree, demand planning and getting LE production numbers "right" is hard but if they want to play the game with the other hype brands, Lange should put their big boy pants on and make that limited production commitment
Producing a non-numbered application piece serves the brand not the customer. The brand wants it both ways, the perception of limited volume (and the $), without actually any commitment to the customer who opens their wallets to level up in order to purch...
This sort of behaviour is generally reserved
for the top brand in its business, like Hermes leather handbags, Lange certainly has yet to achieve that status 😛
Curious
Could it really be that they are not doing well since they seem to only want to produce the watch when there is a confirmed order. Retrenching watchmakers might be in the works. Or maybe they want to create a perception of scarcity eg I can’t see a datogr...
It's possible but...
I don't think this change is happening due to poor sales of models like the standard Zeitwerk (with the original ZW movement) or Datograph Up/Down. I say that because I haven't noticed those pieces being delivered and sitting on shelves. But others, in di...
What about purchasers of pre-owned models?
Dear CR, As always, super informative! As with others, I don’t like this direction at all. What I loved about Lange was its approachability and the fact you can walk in, find something you like, and go home with it. Don’t get me wrong, the people on the g...
Data point (steel Datomatic) and general thoughts
Hi Walid, Wonderful hearing from you! I am confused about the strong negative reaction from so many people, because these changes don't seem very substantial to me IF they are implemented honestly and efficiently, as described. I don't understand why so m...
Very miserable development - in an attempt to improve things the brand turned arrogant in perception of many collectors.
I am a L&S fan and collector for 25 years - or should I say: I had been a fan?! In 1996 I bought my first Lange 1 at an AD followed by 4 additional Lange watches over the years. In total, 3 new from different ADs and two from the Secondary Market. Current...
Thank you for contributing new information, and very sorry to hear this.
I very much hope Lange would correct this for a long-term client like you who has purchased 3 brand new Langes from ADs in the past. A Lange boutique, owned by Lange/Richemont (vs. independently owned), should sell you that Odysseus before selling it to a...
I don‘t believe that L&S will change anything ...
... I have written to Glashütte to tell them about my disappointment. I did not even get an answer after weeks of writing. And I disagree with you regarding the issue of Used Watches. I believe that the brands are becoming more and more dependent on buyer...
Very much agree with everything you mentioned!
The secondary market supports the primary market, they are intertwined. No matter where or how Lange owners purchased their watches, they still make a commitment to the brand and long term recognizing and supporting fans of the brand is the most important...
I'm not seeing where you disagree. I agree with all of your points.
And I hope you get an answer from Glashutte.
Makes a lot of sense
Dear CR, As always, your responses are thoughtful and thought-provoking! I think the strong negative reaction here stems, at least for me, from what I see as a shift in the way the brand has been operating in recent years. Maybe its the current management...
I agree with your points, Walid. Would you agree that the question we're both talking about here is...
"If Lange will sell application pieces only to clients who have bought new Langes from authorized points of sale, and if Lange will NOT sell application pieces to people who have made all prior Lange purchases in the preowned market, then will a significa...
Definitely agree
But there is also the hybrid of enthusiasts that purchase brand new from boutique/AD but also on the secondary market and I think their purchases across the board should count. Re your 2 examples, absolutely agree on the hg Lange 1 (wish it was offered to...
Walid, thank you.
I enjoy this discussion I agree with you that purchases made on the secondary market should "count" for something in the case of hybrid purchasers (like me!) -- people who buy both new (from ADs) and preowned. Also, if a person owns a Lange with papers fr...
Agree 100%
Dear CR, Apologies for the delayed response - I also enjoy this discussion. I think the Hybrid buyer is a key component of the overall strategy and transparency is key. If I walk in and ask for an allocation of a special piece, my preference is to be eith...
Can't say I am too happy with this
It just makes acquiring new watches more difficult with artificial scarcity. However, Lange need to compete and hop on to the hype train and I think they are mimicking AP's strategy of increasing divert sales to boutique and restricting supply to create h...
No need to be sorry. These are great points.
Finding out that a sales associate is lying to you is really offputting. I bet that's happened to most of us. And because the Lange universe is relatively small, those lies are often easier to catch. This would never happen, but it'd be great if all major...
A agree with every of your points, benlee 338 ...
... I notice that L&S get more and more featured on social Media. Is it a good development? Most likely yes, from a business perspective of L&S. But it will change the brand. So far, Lange has been more or less a connoisseur brand with limited Sho...
This is why I hope Lange doesn't increase production significantly
Even with a greater social media presence, Lange will remain a relatively obscure brand because the average non-watch person will never see or hear about them. The last thing I'd want is for more non-watch people to know what a Lange is. Let Patek and Rol...
Amazing how this same topic is met with much more positive reactions on TRF
Rolex buyers are already used to the games and seem not to mind this change for Lange. They see it as a sign of the brand's success. Perhaps that is a more realistic and dispassionate view of simply how to be successful in the watch market today 🙄
This is basically admitting you need to buy another piece...
To get SS Odysseus - disgusting practice that is officially sanctioned. Dear God, I always wanted a Lange but actually I got my first Patek 5712 putting my name down and patiently waiting - that was in 2016. Looks like I made a good decision when choosing...
Unfortunately high demand means brands have to take tough decisions.
It would be no different now with Patek, you wouldn’t get near a 5712 without a purchase history.
So I was thinking about it a bit more
And on the surface of it I kinda understand what they are doing. The 'pre-sales' will reduce the amount of watches on the secondary market (and we know discounts on Lange can be pretty nice), and I understand them wanting to sell the most in-demand pieces...