mkvc
1386
As usual, Art, you put it better than I did.
Dilution affects perception (and probably reality as well). Following your "intrinsic value" formulation, I think the question can be recast in two parts:
1. Does fine finishing always constitute intrinsic value?
2. Even if it does not constitute intrinsic value, is it a useful signal that intrinsic value is present?
On the first question, we may be divided. Jed clearly falls into the "yes" camp. I fall into the "probably not" camp. Others will have their own opinions.
On the second, it seems clear that the connection between finishing and other aspects of movement quality or exclusivity has been broken.
Thomas, I can assure you that my motives in starting this thread were in no way career-oriented. Indeed, simply having started this thread may disqualify me for any job in the watch industry!
Has fine finishing lost its significance?
Here's the problem: fine movement finishing is not really extremely difficult to achieve, it's just resource-intensive. While making a new mechanism or design takes a special talent, given a certain level of skill (a high level of skill, but far from uniq...
Icing on the cake
I think that fine finishing is icing on the cake... but the cake has to be good to begin with. I don't think two cars are distinguished simply by looking at power windows: a tricycle with power windows is still a tricycle Fine finishing has "lost" its sig...
further, I would argue that...
1. for "art" to be art, it has to be recognized as art, which requires an audience who appreciates it and can identify it. Honestly, much of what gets oohed and aahed over in recent months/years I am left scratching my head on. Fine Anglage is more than j...
But sometimes we are happy to eat icing alone!
Both cake and icing are good together but cake without icing and icing without cake can also satisfy us. So we'll take watches of horological ingenuity without the finest decoration (eg, early Journe maybe?) and we'll equally happily take watches of the f...
Very interesting topic.
I don't think that every watch willbe equally finished in the Future. It takes time, and requires skill to finish a movement, I mean not an industrial finish, but a handmade one. Which has a consequence on the ...Price. Look at a VC skeleted minute repeat...
I can't really add...
...to what Thomas and Nico have written. From a purely personal point of view, I do not like ornate movement finishing: no engraving; no skeletonisation. But that's me and the type of watches I enjoy. While I do appreciate "expertly" finished movements, l...
Well...
>>...fine movement finishing is not really extremely difficult to achieve, it's just resource-intensive. While making >> a new mechanism or design takes a special talent, given a certain level of skill (a high level of skill, but >> far from unique) movem...
It's interesting that you mention finishing of musical instruments.
I have some experience in that area. I have certainly seen plenty of violins with beautifully even corners, precise purfling, perfectly cut scrolls, etc. that win craftsmanship competitions but don't sound like anything. I have also seen plenty of violins...
Sorry, again, catching this in between a rock and a hard place...
Hi, MKVC, Your last sentence almost seems like a desperate tautology (no offense intended, I hope we know each other well enough not to get mired in misunderstood implied nuances of words) - sure I agree that anyone doing anything just for the sake of som...
Good news
I am sure that everyone will be relieved to know that I am not feigning lack of knowledge in anticipation of securing a writing gig elsewhere -- I really do lack knowledge! Go get 'em Thomas -- I'm definitely with you on this one. Best, Gary G
Phew...
That was trenchant, to say the least. TM, are you absolutely certain that there are contributors here who are "...posting here not to share, but to build up one's profile so they can get paying gigs, here or elsewhere"? Isn't it possible that some people ...
About Violin makers .....
Hi I am not a violin makers, nor had I any experience in making any musical instruments. In an earlier post, there was a post that some violin makers won craftmanship awards with 'not so good' sounding violins while other makers make good sounding violins...
no because it's not "just " a matter of putting time and ressources but
the know how. Many - high end- brands who are known for their finish have actually set up training workshops in their factories to teach the different techniques because you can have bevelled edges and geneva waves but if the angles are not perfectly at 4...
Material, Hardening, Punching...cherry wood....
These all are the prerequisites element for polishing. Different type of steel, brass, gold, german silver!... will need different ways to treat on polishing and get different outcome... Harden process is usually finished by heating and cooling, like oil ...
Great topic.
I don't really have anything to add, I'm just building up my post count, not because I am looking for a paying gig, but in this economy.... Seriously, I can't add much to what's already been said. I will offer this - I find myself marveling at finely fini...
Agreed
Especially these days with every other watch on the market today being a display back (or front LOL). It certainly adds to the aesthetic and perceived value when done well, expensive movement or not.
Dilution affects perception . . .
. . . but I'm not savvy enough to make a judgement one way or the other. I will address your parting question, though. My sense is that the current state of watchmaking is short on intrinsic value, and that the wave to catch will be ridden by the manufact...
As usual, Art, you put it better than I did.
Dilution affects perception (and probably reality as well). Following your "intrinsic value" formulation, I think the question can be recast in two parts: 1. Does fine finishing always constitute intrinsic value? 2. Even if it does not constitute intrinsi...
LOL! MKVC, you would be the LAST person I would suspect of
trying to leverage your participation here for some other agenda... But thanks for the disclaimer...
First, a disclosure, mkvc . . .
. . . fine finishing is not of exceptional importance when I assess a watch. I value the finish of an Omega 30T2SC more highly than lauded independents not because I feel the Omega is superior objectively, but because it was produced in series, intended f...
I find it fascinating how this discussion seems to be polarising into...
evaluation and "worth" of functional criteria vs non-functional "cosmetic" finishing, underscored by value vis a vis price. Related, of course, to the original post, but perhaps only as a second or third order derivative. Quite a bit different than the pr...
Excellent...
.....points, Art (as usual). "it was produced in series, intended for wide distribution, priced reasonably, and most importantly, functional" I share your prediliction. I share your
I never paid much attention to the details of fine finishing
Until I found www.thepurists.com had the opportunity to tour the AP factory. These folks are artists at work, such fine details at each stage of production. So much to learn and so little time. Thanks for the education www.puristpro.com fr...
I don't agree that it's lost significance
Although it depends on the metric you are measuring. If it's accuracy vs. a less finished movement, then maybe yes. However for many of us who appreciate the extreme art of "sweating the details", then no. .... why else would there be a price premium for ...
What if...
...instead of being done by well-paid people in very comfortable workshops in Europe, the uber-finishing were done by semi-slave labour in sweat shops elsewhere? Would that change the perception of it? Can't you hear the protestors protesting at the use o...
Disclosure
All replies will be used in my forthcoming article Art in the Service of Oppression: an exposé of the abuses of labour by the bourgoisie in the name of Art, with the aim of raising an awareness of the use of art as a tool for controlling the masses, as a ...
Are you a vegetarian yet, Nick?
If not, I suggest you hie thee to a slaughterhouse thither soon...
:)
Not a veggie, and quite happy to hunt and do all the unpleasantness that goes with it
Daniels
George Daniels, in one of his books, makes a comment to the effect that, from an historical point of view, in periods when watchmakers had nothing new or interesting to offer in the way of technology or improvements in timekeeping they resorted to decorat...
I put that into the category of things...
"from an historical point of view, in periods when watchmakers had nothing new or interesting to offer in the way of technology or improvements in timekeeping they resorted to decoration and external design." Hi, nick, I put that great statement in to the...
I guess he wanted to express his preferences...
in view of utilising limited resources most effectively. judging from his own work (and the experiences his elevens reported), he values finishing very much, but discounts it if it is implemented in lieu of something horologically significant. Best, Magnu...
when the ideas run out - you polish
This is the view of Thomas Pretcher from an interview a couple of years ago. There is something to be said for decorations that were placed explicitely to capture particles (loose bits of dirt and metal) that would otherwise find their way into the moveme...
Separate and apart from ideas and concepts, there is attention to detail
Dear Amerix, There is no reason that Einstein shouldn't also be able to add correctly. Cheers, TM
attention to detail
Dear TM, I could use some, well a lot, of that myself - such as getting the names, the spelling, the grammar, and even the thought patterns right! However, I am pretty reliable when it comes down to the facts. Cheers back to you! Amerix
Yes, and I am afraid that this state of affairs
will continue until replacement parts with their materials are no longer available or the machines designed to fabricate them have been scrapped, dismanteled or re-programmed to suit the latest tolerances and specifications; human skills will still be req...
my less than 2 cents...
Does fine finishing improve the functionality of the movement? is it the shiny bright surfaces that are attractive on some basic level, or is it all abstraction?
I would make a distinction between finishing and decoration
The finishing contributes to higher accuracy and better reliability: the polished surfaces and beveled edges reduce friction and general wear and tear. The decoration does not contribute to better function in any way. I encountered the watches (mostly on ...
Finishing and decoration...
is similar to the 19th and early 20th century distinction in architecture made between ornament and decoration . That is, ornament is a heightening of some architectural quality, be that structural, programmatic, thermal, symbolic, whatever. In this view,...
It is important in watchmaking but not the most important, to me.
Fine finishing is part of the watchmaking. We can't ignore it and strike it out completely. It is akin to:- 1. Power reserve - you have 48 hours, he has 8 days and I have 31 days. 2. Case - yours can withstand the drop from the table, his can withstand th...
I love and I hate ...
to be one of the PuristS, because of discussions like this. Love - where else can I find dicussions like this 24/7? Hate - what else keeps me away from sleeping at 4 am? My humble contribution: Fine finishing is just one important detail of the whole thin...
Bring back "real" Observatory Time Trials...
and then we can judge what of fine-finishing is useful for being a watch, and what is useful for being jewelery.