Fastwong
2564
Quality of execution is something I think is overlooked quite a bit, especially in the current indy hype
Being "handmade" doesn't make it good... or even actually handmade. Having 50 interior angles doesn't mean any of them were executed well. Innovative complications doesn't equate to well tested, performant, and reliable. In the current indy craze I think a lot of people are buying based on stories, on media, on what they hear, and what they see on the internet without actually considering whether it's any good. It sounds stupid but it's hard to know what good is. Two interviews come to mind which you can find on youtube:
1. Collectability interview with William Andrewes and in one of the videos they discuss what "good" is.... that things that are truly great will stand the test of time and always have value the challenge is knowing what is good... and as it turns out excellence and quality can be a hard thing to assess.
2. Hodinkee podcast with Ben Clymer and crew where he talks about GF being the equal too or even better finished/executed than Dufour but how esoteric it all is vs his new RR CC II with anglage so fat you can see it from space which isn't any better executed but more accessible, even non wis can look at it and be wowed.
There's a lot of B grade execution charging A+ prices in the market thanks to hype, media coverage, whatever and frankly, most customers will buy whatever they are told. It's not any different than Chanel bags or other luxury... and I can't fault people, at the very top it is something so esoteric how is one to know unless they are a full on watch nerd looking at macros on the internet all the time? They probably are busy with the rest of their lives. I don't like pooping on other watches since value is pretty relative but I do think buyers need to be wary in this market about where their dollars go and really consider the quality of execution. This is especially with all the new indies popping up that have zero brand equity but premium prices so you really need to make sure you're actually getting all the value in the thing on the wrist unlike this RS where the value is more in the collectability, rarity, and legacy of the thing.
That said, $ being equal I do have a little more sympathy for brands that are truly building their watches entirely in house vs brands that do more outsourcing and assembly. An in house built watch to me has a singular vision and philosophy and executing that might be imperfect since it's hard to be good at everything but I appreciate the desire to execute that vision independently if imperfectly vs a brand relying heavily on suppliers where ultimately their role if not execution is quality control.
How acceptable are quality issues to you?
I thought this would be a fun topic. For me, it depends on the price range of the watch and what reasons I’m buying for. If you are buying a small production vintage patek or rolex, you aren’t expecting some magical jump in quality. You’re paying for rari...
I also kept debating about these mechanical parts and hand polishing…
They do wear and tear. I don’t believe some deep beveling or nice sharp angles cannot be achieved by another watchmaker who’s assigned one job just to polish. Hence I won’t buy too high end expensive Indies…but who do I know? Does the brush strokes of tho...
This particular watch is from many years ago, yet people are still using it to bash Roger Smith
I don't think that's fair at all. Either one should provide a recent example, or I would say that the argument doesn't have a leg to stand on in this. Now, I don't mean to be unnecessarily harsh to you, my apologies, but I've seen this exact argument on a...
Well… Make a watch from scratch, then total the amount of time and money spent. Add the lost value of your time pursuing a more lucrative opportunity. Pull out a 10x optic and compare results. Go through a hundred iterations.
Personally, I am in awe of anyone who is willing to step onto the stage and subject themselves to public scrutiny. 🧐
Put me in the approval camp …
Of loving evidence of the “Hand of the Maker”! I have no problem with signs that a human being was involved, especially where magnification of this order is required. I think the beauty lies in the wonderful dial design, the history behind this extraordin...
Quality of execution is something I think is overlooked quite a bit, especially in the current indy hype
Being "handmade" doesn't make it good... or even actually handmade. Having 50 interior angles doesn't mean any of them were executed well. Innovative complications doesn't equate to well tested, performant, and reliable. In the current indy craze I think ...
RS watches are 95% handmade
He uses CNC for the cutting of components, and he doesn't make jewels, springs, and gaskets. He has openly shared such info with watch publications, social media, speeches, gatherings, and watch fairs. It's not a secret. His workshop is opened for any of ...
Not all components,
but only the raw pieces for some movement components if I heard him correctly. A watch is not just movements.. He made the case, lugs, dial, crown and bezel using traditional methods, hand-guilloche and engraved the dial, plus finishing of the movement (m...
According to this esquire interview, 80% of the man hours are spent on finishing cnc'd parts.
"We’ve always used CNC machines,” explains Smith. “I’ve never shied away from showing that. If you want to make more than one watch a year you need to use CNC, there’s no question. Making pocket watches by hand is one thing but the reduced tolerances requ...
Price commensurate of the quality and service.
Pick any two: Low Price High Quality Excellent Customer Service Robots are 'perfect', get a Swatch 51. Yes some names / houses / brands do seem overly hyped in price versus actual quality and watchmaker hours, herd mentality and all that. Best value/quali...
Debatable, but unreasonable...
Roger Smith might pump out 15 - 20 watches in a banger year, while Greubel Forsey is producing 200+ watches pear year. In comparison, Roger Smith's watches rely on the human hand to a greater degree. Of course if you want to fly close to the sun of perfec...
The stats are telling
260 annually for GF and 18 per year for Roger Smith - that's more GF in 1 year than the total Roger Smith ever made (150 up to Oct 2023)...
That's misformation
White gold S2 now retails at £357,200. The retail for this particular S2 would have been much lower then.
No box and papers
I don't have a Series 2 and tempted to join the bidding, but decided against as a i prefer a complete set
No box and paper for a Roger Smith
The results for any Greubel Forsey are telling on the other hand
Price = what buyers
are willing to pay for handwork. That's it. Roger is not forcing his watches on us adults spending our own money freely.
You keep implying price is telling or production is telling. This is a thread about quality of finish and execution, neither auction results nor production numbers tell anything about quality.
This is exactly the point I made above, people use what they are told to make inferences or even excuses for quality when in fact price, rarity, marketing, media, etc are not real indicators of quality. RM tourbillon secondary prices way stronger than RWS...
I have replied on "quality"
I posted above Roger's style of finishing is not the style of French/Swiss. George Daniels has a dim view on finishing and it shows in his own watches. Roger is an apprentice of GD so why are you judging him based on your own view of finishing? What exact...
I really don’t know where you are getting your information from.
RWS uses CNC machines for everything, including cases. That Youtube video you cite is years old. Even there, he makes the final cuts on the case with a CNC. For the record, I have no problem with CNC machines and in fact prefer it if my watches are made u...
At this point especially after I pointed you to actual videos
I'm convinced you are either (1) trolling (2) watched the video of Rolex manufacturing since you love Rolex (3) hate handmade watches with a passion (4) enjoy misinformation and/or (5) hate Roger Smith. I'm at a loss for words for someone who refuses to a...
Maybe you didn't watch all of the youtube videos.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KWtblU8-emY&t=0s Roger: "We use CNC quite a bit, especially with the case work" Like you, I am averse to misinformation. Perhaps your definition of handmade is different from my own. You have every right to enjoy your incom...
If you heard what he said in that same video
The CNC was used to punch holes for the gasket (to improve water resistance) and screws. At that point the case was already completed. You conveniently missed all 6 of 7 videos of how he handmade his case. Do yourself a favour - watch how the GF HM1 was m...
Exactly
I feel like the point of the thread is being missed. These are clear flaws and objectively bad quality.
What exactly is quality?
Chronometry? Movement infrastructure? Service interval? Robustness? Tolerance between parts? Can you please define because your thread is all about "quality" which you have not defined to this date. Do you have real ownership experience to derive such a c...
Phillips has one of these coming up for auction too, more photos to check out 😀
Crazy 2 out of 5 coming up for auction at the same time