patrick_y
[PuristSPro Moderator]
33540
That'd be quite a dream team!
So glad to read your thoughts. That's quite the dream team! But to fictionally concoct a dream watch and to actually take one to birth in reality is not entirely the same thing. Here, we have an actual product - non-fiction trumps fiction in this case. But as you said, not a big deal any longer since so many other brands have produced products with similar attributes at lower prices.
But, to Mr. Fleming's credit, I would say, the fact that we're comparing him to Max Busser, an industry veteran, is already quite impressive. Nobody else here on WPS is generally compared in such a way, right? So that's still pretty special. And Max Busser has been in this industry for decades, whereas Mr. Fleming has only been around for a couple years. Imagine what Mr. Fleming will be able to achieve a decade from now...
Like you, I'm not usually partial to watch collectors who start their own brands - most attempts aren't great neither. But Mr. Fleming's first attempt does strike me as impressive for a first attempt. And Mr. Chee's enamel dial phoenix watch was quite impressive in the official photos - I've yet to see one in the flesh to see if it's as good in reality though. So despite my overall agreement to your statement that "watch collectors should remain as watch collectors" I am now starting to think - maybe there could be some exceptions to the rules...
Thank you my friend for sharing your thoughts!
Introducing a New Ultra-High-Horology Brand: Fleming Watches
Let's say you're very passionate about watches. It's like your all consuming hobby. Would you consider starting a watch brand? Well... Plenty of people play Fantasy Football - in America this is a game where you pick certain players to be members of your ...
That movement is definitely VERY LIKABLE!
Hard to fall in love in photos - but in person - this could be highly compelling in person!
I'll levy the same criticisms I did when it came out...
I have to admit, I was never terribly swayed by Fleming (the brand). I don’t really care about the people behind it (they're probably okay), but I do care about the venture (because of its possible impact). From everything I’ve read is an établisseur type...
You bring a good point!
I personally want to give a little credit here with some empathy. As someone who (like you) is very interested in watches, I have toyed with the idea of designing the perfect watch. I'm just saying, that Mr. Fleming's interpretation is darn good. And not ...
Here are my replies:
First, you can like the watch and brand because you're of course allowed to. My arguments clarify my gripes and attempt to argue back against the hype and marketing which I think don't accurately reflect the facts. 1. That it's real isn't in itself a toke...
All very good points!
You bring up three very compelling arguments. Our opinions are all a little personal and subject to our own biases. For me, I was really impressed that Fleming made this product as he did. Considering he is an enthusiast. I am using the fact that he's an ...
Thank you.
Like you say, it's a matter of perspective. Glad we could hash it out nicely!
wow tough audience 😅..fair enough
I think this is a very nice watch! It reminds me of Voutilanen creations, probably because of the dial. Although you don't like the watch, I found the argument that the price should be $35K instead of $50K very perplexing. If you don't like the watch, why...
This is indeed one tough audience!
Value is a tough thing to quantify! And yes, we all seem to be very willing to pay $32K USD for a Patek 6119 - a basic movement, manual wind, time-only watch. Considering we're all so eager to pay that, I'd say the Patek Philippe Minute Repeater at around...
But it's not exclusive.
It's a Chronode C101 with a bit more pampering. I made the price comment because it's just too much to justify for a time-only from an établisseur that's issuing their first product. $50 000 is a lot of money to ask for something that's high-end but just ...
You bring up a good point!
Yes, this is an essentially an off-the-shelf Chronode movement, but it has been heavily modified. But we also know the movement has a track record for reliability and the problems with the movement are known. The Coyon and the Brette movements are much lo...
Agreed. At 50,000 CHF, it was a good deal.
Who knows if the next one will be as fancy as this recent one. But I agree, if it's similar, $100K USD would be fair in many people's eyes.
Your assessment is spot-on.
That's right. I was floored to find Brette's pricing be what it was when I saw what he offered.
Sure it is.
In 2021 (which is not terribly long ago), Brette just used a subscription model; 12 pieces. Fleming has produced a total of 39 pieces (7, 7, 25). So it's slightly larger volume since we're dealing with not just one guy at the helm, and still its price is ...
Brette watches were never available. All was sold out via friends + instagram instantly
is much easier to get a Patek Philippe Nautilus at MSRP than a Brette so the comparison with the listed price makes little sense.
I cannot but disagree, unfortunately.
A lot of watches sell out like that. It doesn't matter that the watch sold out quickly because I made the comparison as a hypothetical one: presuming all else was equal, clearly the Brette is the better buy. The point is that for the price, the value is u...
I understand your point but you also mention the Grönefeld and once again is a sold out piece
From the official website " Sorry, For the moment we can’t take new orders until further notice. We are now processing the overwhelming amount of reservations we’ve received after the launch of our 1969 DeltaWorks and 1941 Grönograaf. Thank you for your p...
I see what you mean.
However, the fact that it is presently sold out isn't a mark against it, IMO. I'm comparing watch to watch since they're pretty easy to get secondhand. But maybe what you're saying is that one has to compare the totality of the circumstance which includes...
point taken, I wouldn't buy this
but none of the other "alternatives" either 😅 MG are also over priced for relatively simply manual watches, grandfather look and feel. Strom a bit more modern but nothing WOW at their prices. L&H etc. also not for me as watches have to be 🇨🇭 (at least...
Completely agree on pricing.
It's ridiculous, really. Unfortunately, companies will keep doing as they always have and raise the prices further into the stratosphere for the same product. That's why I'm thinking of going pre-owned for a lot of the higher end ones I'm thinking of buyi...
I have a feeling they'll look better in person!
I could be wrong, but I have a good feeling that they'll look better in person.
As you said it...it is like a football game and so it is a Bet...
I see many such new watch brands are like "IPO"s, with groups of very focused and supportive collectors like "fund managers" buying into the pre-launch. Not a bad thing really, but I can't play along as stakes are too high for me. Many of these collectors...
But big key difference here! This is a watch collector started brand - not an industry insider.
For a guy with no formal professional experience in the watch industry, I'd say he did a darn good job. And that's what makes him so special in my eyes. I've never met a watch collector who started his own brand without any real experience in the watch in...
I have never played fantasy football. But give me Octavio G.
He is now off the board for the rest of you ;-) I figure Ludwig goes next...
I'll take Ludwig!
If I made a watch - I'd also have to include those "scalloped" polished concave steel barrel gears that Audemars Piguet has in their Jules Audemars Chronometer. I just like those so much. And a huge balance wheel with a slow beat. And super thick metal pl...
Posted this earlier
But IMO the watch lacks soul. It feels like someone picked "best vendor for X" and glued it all together. The case also appears to be poorly done with visible solder marks/overflow where lugs meet the watch case on the RG version. I posted pics earlier in...
You're not wrong!
I totally see where you're coming from. I'm just thinking - for a person with little experience in the watch industry as a professional - and just as a collector, this is DARN GOOD for a first attempt. Sure, I can have a great fantasy football team. But o...
Yes
I noticed the same thing on the one Jules model I handled. It is the one that is huge and heavy with the exposed balance right?
I think I've seen the solder marks on more than one Jules Audemars case.
Can't say for certain if this one had the exposed balance.
These seem like very nice watches. There was a previous thread here with some insightful comments.
In particular, one of our esteemed members noted that one may find a well-finished watch with a Comblémine dial from a number of independent brands and price points--several much lower than the one these are offered for.
True!
Dials are the #3 cost contributor in a watch typically; after movement and case. The other ones with the Combélmine dial didn't have the same level of detail in the movement. I'm just saying, for a person at the collector level - to create this is darn im...
well done in creating a new brand! 🔥
I am truly impressed by someone so young who has moved from being a watch collector to a watch creator. Owning your own watch brand is a dream for many watch enthusiasts, and I believe the creator made the right choice by putting his own name on the dial....
Agreed!
Many of our WatchProSite readers are grading this watch as if it came from a big brand. Very few of us have remembered to look at it as a collector-founded brand. Once this aspect is considered, I think most of us will realize how special this brand is. I...
Well, if I had the money and had to choose my dream team
it would be Anita Porchet for a hand painted enamel dial, Jean-Pierre Hagman for the case and Andreas Strehler for the movement. And I am pretty sure that the end result would surpass Mr Fleming's effort! So if I may politely say, I am not so impressed wi...
That'd be quite a dream team!
So glad to read your thoughts. That's quite the dream team! But to fictionally concoct a dream watch and to actually take one to birth in reality is not entirely the same thing. Here, we have an actual product - non-fiction trumps fiction in this case. Bu...
Dear Patrick, you are certainly making a lot of excellent points.
It is not easy to put a project like this together. It requires hard work and substantial financial resources. I also agree that the result is attractive and that even though the price is high it is unclear if it can cover design and production costs at t...
Brilliant analysis
There are so many nice shapes to choose from, many patterns, many brands new ideas to develop that work such financial means the final result could have been extremely different. I see it as a nice collage of elements, he chose the best suppliers but didn...
I like your analysis!
You've clearly had empathy for both sides of the discussion and given a lot of thought for both sides! I agree with all your thoughts and I find your last paragraph to particularly resonates - that Fleming is "promising" and that there may be a bright fut...
Good price, not in love
I can marvel at the finishing, but I still feel like something is off. First impressions are important and this just feels like too much. It looks like a Frankenstein of a watch, albeit made from the highest quality of craftsmanship. A good statement piec...
I can see where you're coming from.
It does look like 10 pounds of stuff crammed into a 5 pound box at first. But I think that's the sign of the times. This isn't a fair example, but the current Mercedes S Class seems so new-fangled and "confused" that I think the car thinks it's a half com...
Yup
Though it certainly isn't an issue if the brand is responsive to potential customers. They've nailed the hard part, now it's just about developing and growing in the coming years.
This movement is the cal 101 which is off the shelf
Not particularly made for this watch And costs around 1000 chf So claiming that their margins are thin and might be losing is a bit of a stretch ...
Yup, this movement is a Chronode movement made by Mojon's team.
I'm sure they didn't get the 1000 CHF version though - the options list on these movements go up significantly and quickly. It's worse than Porsche/Ferrari options pricing. The movement with the customization options costs much more than the base price. I...
I’m lost in all these new brands coming up
There are no soul or anything!.. There is some Wow effect on the dial(Kari)…but i won’t call it Ultra high, and what are the criterio for Ultra high end in todays world…It seems not too much effort. Sorry if it’s to negative, but i just miss the good old ...
We all miss the Good old Days!
That's the world we live in... Imagine just 100+ years ago, we were living in a two dimensional world. Humankind didn't really have airplanes, and we barely had tiny submarines that looked like big barrels. Now, we live in a 3 dimensional world, with that...
My 2c
The Fleming is a fine looking watch. I wish the eponymous founder and his team the best of luck, and I look forward to seeing the next offering. A solid first entry that is not divisive - to me, it reminds me of the Biver watch. I am sure it looks lovely ...
Love the "BUT"
There's always a BUT. Thank you for sharing your very objective thoughts! That Berneron Mirage is certainly a very special watch - so special that I've yet to see one in person. It is indeed a very special watch.
good points, the Berneron Mirage has something going on and this doesn't. Too similar to many (too many) elegant watches
that nobody wants or needs anymore..
I'm not sure I like it
It's a good watch, of course, but it has problems that a 50k watch shouldn't have. First of all, the price is insanely high, secondly the design isn't in any way original. I am not a fan of the independent fad. Most of these new brands will be gone in 10 ...
Good point!
Back then, watches were only for the wealthy. Any watch with any complexity couldn't normally be serviced easily - as a local clockmaker would not normally be able to do it. But if you lived in Paris, you'd be able to get it done - as Breguet had a worksh...
Well, you can't really compare Breguet with most modern independents
Now we're living in an age of a flooded independent market. Most new brands are interchangeable. Breguet was a genius, not just any other independent
Breguet invented a bunch of completely novel tech at the time.
Not even remotely comparable?
I would hope so!
I don't think servicing will be too bad neither. But I'm not an expert in this department. A watchmaker would probably want to get a "schematic" from Chronode (the manufacturer), which will have a big blueprint of the movement and will tell the watchmaker...
I can see how the A-team is a good strategy, but there's a hitch
I was involved in a similar project (if I may say so) in a completely different industry. My squad were the best in automotive information. We partnered with IBM for the hardware and service (this is before Dell or Apple). We chose NAPA Auto Parts for the...
Here, there's only one man in charge...
You definitely described a classic problem. Here, there is definitely only one man in charge - Thomas Fleming. But, we do have Fleming's inexperience, naivete, and more to contend with. Don't know if he has a big ego - seems like a nice fella - but I don'...
He seems to be that many here are overthinking this
When an affluent collector, endowed with a Stanford education and venture capital lineage, initiates a project of this nature, it is primarily for his own enjoyment and secondarily for those who appreciate it. Should it fail to resonate with others, it ha...
Very True!
I didn't want to hold his Stanford education nor his lineage against him, but of course, this did enter my landscape of thoughts - I'm not naive to not consider this. And I too thought many in our group enjoy schadenfreude and criticism. But I was mainly ...
You did well to post it!! 👏
But the reality is that for a watch brand to go stratospheric (and appreciate in value if we want to be cynical) is have either watchmaking heritage or, in this case, to be launched by a watchmaker. Of course that is no guarantee and there are exceptions ...
Like you, I'm not sure I'm crazy about the case neither.
But sometimes these things look better in person and then I'm really humbled. Personal story: when I first saw the Patek Philippe Nautilus, I thought it looked strange, and I thought it had ears. "I'd rather have a Rolex Submariner than that weird Nautilu...
Fascinating, perhaps an ego boost, perhaps true love for horology, perhaps non of the above…
Having been in this sphere for a few years, my compelling reason for supporting/buying an independent watchmakers work, has usually been twofold. One, the product had to appeal to me from a design standpoint, both technically and aesthetically. Two, the w...
Thank you for sharing your very objective and measured thoughts Tim!
Always a pleasure to read you!
Rather have a Laurent Ferrier.
Bill Sanders's Lyrique looks like much better value, too, for a similar type of assembleur.