Independents

This post was sparked by something subtle but thought-provoking: Member Modernahab recently shared a photo of his Hermès Arceau Le Temps Voyageur —but instead of posting it in Horological Meandering , he chose the Independents forum. That small decision g...  

As prime examples. Am I wrong? Does 25% steak in a business really make you vertically integrated?

It’s a longer read than my short exercise, but it’s still interesting and served as source material for me. https://swisswatches-magazine.com/first-to-the-post-what-next-as-investors-circle-vaucher-manufacture-fleurier/

true vertical integration implies control. A 25% stake gives access but not authority. Hermès integrates final assembly and dial/case making, but without full control of movements, it’s more “strategically aligned” than fully integrated.

My definition of independent would be that watches can still be produced by said watchmaker if all other parts of the watchmaking industry collapse. With that definition I suspect we'd be down to single digit independents, possibly due to hairspring manuf... 

and you’re right, very few would qualify. Even many respected independents rely on suppliers for escapements or springs. Maybe we need multiple tiers of independence, like “creative,” “manufacturing,” and “ownership” independence?

Hermes sounds like an independent with an appetite. I could see Hermes gobbling up all the component parts of Pole Horloger as well as the Parmigiani brand itself. That would make a nice platform and further acquisitions could easily follow. Dynamic indus... 

When there's no brand forum, I don't know where else to post on the likes of Hermès, or Arnold & Son. If Horological Meandering is where they belong, that's where I will post going forward. In the meantime, my since apologies to all for the breach of foru... 

I always struggle with indexing the posts because I’m responsible for it. I have a general brand bucket called “General Brands” as a catch-all, and then I have Independents, which is also multibrand.

Clearly I haven't dug deeply enough. It would solve many a quandary I've had about where to post. Thanks again!

😂

Otherwise guys like Brette would not be considered independent?

Many respected independents source parts but retain full creative and operational control. Independence isn’t necessarily about making every screw; it’s about autonomy in decision-making and vision.

I would also point to Chanel. They have some serious investing in their foundations and approaches to serious watchmaking. Some of their higher end pieces and I even point to the Chanel Monsieur as a prime example. With their investments and long-term pla... 

This raises a broader question: where does Hermès actually belong in watch brand classification? The traditional categories fail us here: "Fashion Brand" – Dismissive and inaccurate given their manufacturing depth "Independent" – Reserved for artisanal ma... 

They can design and create watches like the L.U.C. Full Strike or in the case of LV, automatons and spin times, yet they also mass produce entry level ebauche based watches under the same brand.

...on Cartier and the arguments he presents about Fashion Brand and Haute Horology might be useful in this context. Some brands are so strongly identified (Strategically Entangled?) with their own history of fashion or jewelry that it is difficult (for ma... 

Reviewing"GEO" George Cramer’s threads—especially his perspective on Cartier’s high watchmaking efforts—there’s a clear parallel to Hermès. Both brands operate under the shadow of their core identity : for Cartier, it’s jewelry; for Hermès, it’s leather. ... 

and LV. Then there is even Van Cleef - their automations are incredible. Bill - I think your time to create a new “term” to enter our lexicon is needed!

Absolutely agree. “Maison Horlogers” captures both creative intent and structural legitimacy without overreaching into full independence. It gives Hermès, Chanel, and even LV a more fitting identity than “fashion brands.”

Richemont, Swatch, or another company is technically independent.

Wait a second, just to clarify, AP makes nearly 50/60k watches per year whose percentage are made by Vaucher. Is it what you meant? I thought AP did not outsource anything, that’s matter for a dedicated thread. Hermes is technically independent, but they’... 

"Then there are Vaucher’s coveted clients, including its leading client, Audemars Piguet, as well as Richard Mille – both vastly wealthy brands that already make use of the manufacture for certain production processes. Audemars Piguet in particular can be... 

How would we classify Chopard, Audemars Piguet… then? They are family owned, have a reasonable amount of vertical integration and make their own movements (partially)? But they are of a size that historically at least has not seen them classified as indep...