Gregineugene
2272
Reviewing George Cramer's writings (GEO to those who remember him from WPS)...
...on Cartier and the arguments he presents about Fashion Brand and Haute Horology might be useful in this context. Some brands are so strongly identified (Strategically Entangled?) with their own history of fashion or jewelry that it is difficult (for many folks) to separate them from that history...especially when the companies themselves have no interest in doing so. Doesn't mean they can't make excellent watches but (back to the argument here) is it Independent Watchmaking?
Is Hermès Truly Independent? A Watchmaking Case That Might Surprise You.
This post was sparked by something subtle but thought-provoking: Member Modernahab recently shared a photo of his Hermès Arceau Le Temps Voyageur —but instead of posting it in Horological Meandering , he chose the Independents forum. That small decision g...
When I think of vertically, integrated companies, I think of models like Rolex and Seiko
As prime examples. Am I wrong? Does 25% steak in a business really make you vertically integrated?
It seems a little more complicated
It’s a longer read than my short exercise, but it’s still interesting and served as source material for me. https://swisswatches-magazine.com/first-to-the-post-what-next-as-investors-circle-vaucher-manufacture-fleurier/
You’re not wrong
true vertical integration implies control. A 25% stake gives access but not authority. Hermès integrates final assembly and dial/case making, but without full control of movements, it’s more “strategically aligned” than fully integrated.
Thought provoking
My definition of independent would be that watches can still be produced by said watchmaker if all other parts of the watchmaking industry collapse. With that definition I suspect we'd be down to single digit independents, possibly due to hairspring manuf...
That’s a tough but fair standard
and you’re right, very few would qualify. Even many respected independents rely on suppliers for escapements or springs. Maybe we need multiple tiers of independence, like “creative,” “manufacturing,” and “ownership” independence?
Very interesting and informative, Bill.
Hermes sounds like an independent with an appetite. I could see Hermes gobbling up all the component parts of Pole Horloger as well as the Parmigiani brand itself. That would make a nice platform and further acquisitions could easily follow. Dynamic indus...
I've never thought of Hermès as being independent. Mods please move the post referred to to the appropriate location.
When there's no brand forum, I don't know where else to post on the likes of Hermès, or Arnold & Son. If Horological Meandering is where they belong, that's where I will post going forward. In the meantime, my since apologies to all for the breach of foru...
Not at all. No rules broken. It was a good way start a conversation though not the one you intended.
I always struggle with indexing the posts because I’m responsible for it. I have a general brand bucket called “General Brands” as a catch-all, and then I have Independents, which is also multibrand.
Huh - I've never seen the 'General Brands' option on the sidebar menu.
Clearly I haven't dug deeply enough. It would solve many a quandary I've had about where to post. Thanks again!
I don’t think you need to be vertical
Otherwise guys like Brette would not be considered independent?
Exactly
Many respected independents source parts but retain full creative and operational control. Independence isn’t necessarily about making every screw; it’s about autonomy in decision-making and vision.
Very insightful Bill. I agree with much of your premise.
I would also point to Chanel. They have some serious investing in their foundations and approaches to serious watchmaking. Some of their higher end pieces and I even point to the Chanel Monsieur as a prime example. With their investments and long-term pla...
A Taxonomy Problem.
This raises a broader question: where does Hermès actually belong in watch brand classification? The traditional categories fail us here: "Fashion Brand" – Dismissive and inaccurate given their manufacturing depth "Independent" – Reserved for artisanal ma...
Chopard and LV are also worth mentioning.
They can design and create watches like the L.U.C. Full Strike or in the case of LV, automatons and spin times, yet they also mass produce entry level ebauche based watches under the same brand.
Reviewing George Cramer's writings (GEO to those who remember him from WPS)...
...on Cartier and the arguments he presents about Fashion Brand and Haute Horology might be useful in this context. Some brands are so strongly identified (Strategically Entangled?) with their own history of fashion or jewelry that it is difficult (for ma...
That’s an excellent point.
Reviewing"GEO" George Cramer’s threads—especially his perspective on Cartier’s high watchmaking efforts—there’s a clear parallel to Hermès. Both brands operate under the shadow of their core identity : for Cartier, it’s jewelry; for Hermès, it’s leather. ...
As Carlos22 said you also have Chopard
and LV. Then there is even Van Cleef - their automations are incredible. Bill - I think your time to create a new “term” to enter our lexicon is needed!
A new term for eternity.
Absolutely agree. “Maison Horlogers” captures both creative intent and structural legitimacy without overreaching into full independence. It gives Hermès, Chanel, and even LV a more fitting identity than “fashion brands.”
Anything not owned by
Richemont, Swatch, or another company is technically independent.
That title goes to Audemars Piguet , which reportedly sources 50,000–60,000 movements per year
Wait a second, just to clarify, AP makes nearly 50/60k watches per year whose percentage are made by Vaucher. Is it what you meant? I thought AP did not outsource anything, that’s matter for a dedicated thread. Hermes is technically independent, but they’...
Sorry I didn't proofread here is the exact quote. I meant to all clients not just AP which is a client. - I will correct it. "Vaucher, assisting in the production of between 50,000 and 60,000 movements per year. "
"Then there are Vaucher’s coveted clients, including its leading client, Audemars Piguet, as well as Richard Mille – both vastly wealthy brands that already make use of the manufacture for certain production processes. Audemars Piguet in particular can be...
Let me pose another question…
How would we classify Chopard, Audemars Piguet… then? They are family owned, have a reasonable amount of vertical integration and make their own movements (partially)? But they are of a size that historically at least has not seen them classified as indep...