Bill
31957
That’s an excellent point.
Reviewing"GEO" George Cramer’s threads—especially his perspective on Cartier’s high watchmaking efforts—there’s a clear parallel to Hermès. Both brands operate under the shadow of their core identity : for Cartier, it’s jewelry; for Hermès, it’s leather. And both have invested meaningfully in watchmaking—Cartier with CPCP "Collection Privée Cartier Paris (1998-2008)" and complications like the Monopoussoir, Hermès with proprietary calibres and métiers d’art.
Yet public perception lags behind technical reality.
In George’s case, he highlights how Cartier has always had the capacity for haute horlogerie, but the strategic decision not to fully decouple that from their jewelry image has kept them in a kind of horological limbo. Serious watches—yes. Independent watchmaker—no, at least not in the eyes of many collectors.
Hermès may be in the same boat. They’ve earned serious credibility at the bench, but their core identity still orbits the world of fashion and leather. And like Cartier, there’s been no clear move to reposition the watch division as its own standalone force.
But...
One key difference: Cartier is part of Richemont, so they're definitionally not independent. They sit alongside Vacheron, IWC, Piaget - a watch group portfolio. Hermès at least stands outside the watch groups entirely.
But the parallel remains: Both are luxury houses (jewelry/leather) that invested seriously in watchmaking. Both achieved technical legitimacy. Both struggle with the perception gap. And neither has made the bold strategic choice to decouple their watch divisions from their core brand identity.
Is Hermès Truly Independent? A Watchmaking Case That Might Surprise You.
When I think of vertically, integrated companies, I think of models like Rolex and Seiko
It seems a little more complicated
You’re not wrong
Thought provoking
That’s a tough but fair standard
Very interesting and informative, Bill.
I've never thought of Hermès as being independent. Mods please move the post referred to to the appropriate location.
Not at all. No rules broken. It was a good way start a conversation though not the one you intended.
Huh - I've never seen the 'General Brands' option on the sidebar menu.
I don’t think you need to be vertical
Exactly
Very insightful Bill. I agree with much of your premise.
A Taxonomy Problem.
Chopard and LV are also worth mentioning.
Reviewing George Cramer's writings (GEO to those who remember him from WPS)...
That’s an excellent point.
As Carlos22 said you also have Chopard
A new term for eternity.
Anything not owned by
That title goes to Audemars Piguet , which reportedly sources 50,000–60,000 movements per year
Sorry I didn't proofread here is the exact quote. I meant to all clients not just AP which is a client. - I will correct it. "Vaucher, assisting in the production of between 50,000 and 60,000 movements per year. "
